Karigar ji, I am not trying to sidestep our question on the chronological evolution of Sanskrit. I am not sufficiently well informed to address much less resolve the issue at present. All I can say at the moment is that the appearance of a classical sanskrit text indicates to me a terminus ante quem date for Panini

The subject of the Sulva sutras is actually Metrology. The Sulva Sutra actually translates into Rules of the Cord, presumably because the chord was in ubiquitous use as a measuring device. This is a very significant development and i congratulate Michel Danino and Prof Balusubraniam on these epoch making discoveries. Clearly there was a lot more townplanning going on in Harappa than people had thought. And all this could hardly have been possible without a script. The American team of which Michael Witzel was a member has argued that the Indus valley civilization was an a illiterate one. Incidentally Witzel is currently in Delhi being hosted by a sundry group of his Indian admirers, and will give a talk at the IIC at 6:30 pm today in a session chaired by the well known personality and MP Kapila Vatsyayan.Thisi is a letter i wrote to Witzel about 4 months ago, when he ridiculed the ICIH 2009 conference

I am posting this response in my blog, sinc the moderators of the Indo Euerasian yahoo group will not afford me the right of rebuttal at their site. What are they afraid of ?
It is interesting that the notion that 6 people with a science background should turn their attention to history in a land of 1 billion , should be a cause for such derisiveness and scorn on the part of the Professor of Sanskrit from Harvard

Apparently it is not permitted for even 6 people out of a billion , over a sixty year period to claim some degree of scholarship in the field after spending their lifetime studying it. So much so that, even when such a low number as 6*10**-9 is involved, ( a number that will not register as a statistically significant quantity and is below the 6 Sigma number used by engineers to define a process with an incidence of errors that is for all practical purposes, is equal to 0), Prof Witzel feels compelled to remark that it is just a hop step and a jump away from saying anybody can become a historian. He also ignores the fact that each of the six brings impressive credentials to the task, and that if anything such a small number in fact indicates how hard it is to be taken seriously as a Historian of India, especially if one is not an Occidental

The more important point to make is that if we use Prof Witzel’s criterion almost every occidental historian (and philologist of India in the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth century) should have disqualified himself, from writing or commenting on India. Almost all the original sanskritists were self taught, with very little independent verification of their credentials. That includes Franz Bopp and Bernouff. Max Mueller never got his PhD degree( it is in fact doubtful whether he completed the course requirements for a Masters) and his ability to converse or understand a single sentence of spoken Sanskrit was abysmal. One suspects he never went to India, and subject himself to a debate with a Sanskrit pundit because he knew that the resulting ignominy would expose him for what he truly was , a charlatan claiming expertise in a language, in which his mastery was sophomoric at best. In fact it was Schopenauer who had the perspicacity to say that the much vaunted sanskrit knowledge of these so called Sanskritists was worse than the knowledge of a high school graduate in Latin.
It is the civilizational historians like Arnold Toynbee and Will Durant that have taken the contrarian viewpoint. The rest have been content to make the assumption that The European is naturally superior and therefore everything he says should be accepted without questioning. The entire dialog between India and the occident has been one long circular argument, where Michael Witzel of Harvard maintains that i do not have the right to be taken seriously because I am a Hindutva. There are several assumptions that are implicit in such a stereotyping

1. I am a member of an unspeakably evil or senseless group of people called Hindutva, every member of which is beyond the pale of human civilization, simply because he is a Hindutva
2. That therefore. I forfeit the right to have an informed opinion.
3. That No Indian has the right to become a historian unless he is anointed as such by an occidental and that conversely every Occidental has the right to call himself a historian of India , simply because he spends a couple of years in the subcontinent. Most British Historians of India have had no formal training in History much less Indian History. No occidental has challenged the credentials of the host of British and occidental writers from Sir James Mills to Sir William Jones ,Vincent Smith,Sir Penderel Moon or Frank Pargiter, none of whom were Professional historians but the very same Occidental has the absolute hubris to judge whether I possess the credential to write about my own civilization

Alas, I am challenged more frequently by Indians than I am by Occidentals , who (the Indics) are horrifed that i dare to question the conventional wisdom as propounded by a member of the conquering race .
--- In Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com, Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> For your weekend amusement, though the repeated insistence on
> "rewriting" of Indian history is really ... boring:
>
> See:
> "US-based engineer turned historian, Dr Vepa" says it all...
>
> Like our long time friends mathematician Rajaram, bank employees Dr.
> K. and Talageri, electric engineering Prof. S. Kak, medical
> technician V. Agarwal (M.Sc.), astrologers like David Fawley
> ("Vamedeva") etc. etc. Likewise, K. Vepa: he has a PhD of the
> University of Waterloo in Engineering Sciences & applied mechanics,
> studied there 1968 ? 1972.
>
> *Anybody* in the Indian orbit can turn historian overnight, at the
> drop of a hat.
> Preferably, after retirement...
>
> Yesterday a conference on this topic has begun in Delhi:
> 39258>
>
> tiny URL:
>
> Interestingly, even IER/Westerner-baiter Sandhya Jain (rabid
> columnist in the chauvinistic paper, the Organizer), had to comment:
> "NONE of the persons mentioned is a historian!"
>
> Sure, it is a *political* event that she should actually welcome :^)
>
> ----------
> Quote :
>
>
> International meet on Indian history
>
> Statesman News Service
>
> NEW DELHI, Jan. 7: A three-day international conference on Indian
> history, civilization and geopolitics is set to begin here on Friday.
> The executive director of the Indic Studies Foundation, Dr Kosla Vepa,
> said the aim of the conference was "to decolonise various aspects of
> ancient Indian history and its chronology which were deliberately
> distorted and mis-dated during the British Raj with a view to causing
> confusion and a sense of inferiority among Indians".
>
> He said the conference is expected to be a landmark event in the
> interpretation of ancient Indian history since the "current version of
> history is not accurate and distorted. There is need to rewrite the
> history of India. History as we see it".
>
> The US-based engineer turned historian, Dr Vepa said the conference
> "aims at increasing awareness of strategic thinking in India and to
> show that a strategic approach based on long-term objectives is
> essential to ensure a safe and secure future for the ancient Indian
> civilisation and lead it to still greater heights".
>
> Dr Vepa who has been studying history for over a decade now said it
> was a forensic science and depends on numerous other subjects and was
> not just the study of dates or mere guess work. Asked whether
> institutions like Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR) and
> NCERT have been invited for the conference, he said: "They have not
> given their consent to attending it." However, historians and scholars
> who are expected to attend the conference include Mr Bharat Karnad, Mr
> Kanwal Sibal, Mr Uday Bhaskar, Mr JS Rajput and Mr Vikram Sood.
>
> ---------------
>
> Quote from Vepa's web site vepa>: "The Indic Studies Foundation, based in the San Francisco Bay
> Area, seeks to propagate a more accurate and rational approach to the
> study and dissemination of the Indian Civilizational ethos in the world"
>
> and: "I have prepared educational materials and calendars for
> dissemination to schools in India and the US." Remember the CA
> schoolbook case? After failed attempts to rewrite history there,
> this has been their new front...
>
> Onward, Hindutva soldiers!
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
>

This was sent to me by Michel Danino who has done significant work in Dholavira. We are all familiar with the standardiZAton of sizes. A typical example is the A series of paper sizes that is used throughout the world (except in the US), where the next smaller size is obtained by folding the paper in half at the mid point of the long side (the ratio of the sides is 1:sqrroot of 2 or 1:1.4142. and this ratio is preserved when you fold it. It would be interesting to see if a similar principle was at work in civil engineering. Michel Danino has discovered some interesting relationships in some work in Dholavira. This is definitely an exciting news.There is a color graphic in the Mail today citation.

Below is the link to an original study by Prof. R. Balasubramaniam
(IIT-Kanpur) about the Taj Mahal's modular planning, showing continuity in
linear units since Harappan times. His paper has just appeared in _Current
Science_.

Further below is an article in the Indian edition of _Nature_ which
summarizes the new research in metrology in India. It refers to my research
on the units used at Dholavira (c. 2500 BCE) and other Harappan sites, and
to further studies by Prof. Balasubramaniam on the same units evidenced by
the Delhi Iron Pillar and now the Taj Mahal complex. (Click on the link for
a photo of Prof. Balasubramaniam at Konark. You may need to register with
Nature.)

Another article has just been published in a daily, Mail Today:
http://epaper.mailtoday.in/972009/epaperpdf/972009-md-hr-13.pdf

Regards,

Michel

*******************************************************

(1)
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jul102009/42.pdf

New insights on the modular planning of the Taj Mahal
R. Balasubramaniam
Department of Materials and Metallurgical Engineering, Indian Institute of
Technology, Kanpur 208 016, India

Dimensional analysis has revealed that the modular
planning of the Taj Mahal complex was executed using
the traditional measurement units mentioned in the
Arthasastra, and, in particular, the vitasti measuring
12 angulams of 1.763 cm. The riverfront terrace and
garden sections of the complex were planned using
square grids of 90 vitasti to the side, while the forecourt
and caravanserai section using square grids of 60
vitasti to the side. The logical numbers that result for
the dimensions have been analysed to show the ease of
division of these numbers into symmetric elements to
understand quadratic division of space of the garden
area and the triadic division of space of the mausoleum,
including decimal divisions. A novel approach to
understand the metrology of historical architectural
structures of the Indian subcontinent is revealed.

*******************************************************
******************
(2)

http://www.nature.com/nindia/2009/090708/full/nindia.2009.227.html

NATURE INDIA
doi:10.1038/nindia.2009.227; Published online 8 July 2009

Science news

In same measures: Harappa to Taj
K. S. Jayaraman


Balasubramaniam in front of the Sun Temple in Konark, Orissa.

A researcher analysing designs of historical buildings and monuments of
India has made a profound discovery. He has shown that the unit of length
used by the builders through the ages surprisingly remained the same for
over 3900 years. This reveals a new dimension in metrology — the science of
measurement — in the Indian subcontinent.

From the Harappan settlements of 2000 B. C. and the Delhi Iron Pillar of
Gupta period (320–600 AD) to the 17th century Taj Mahal, the unit 'angulam'
had remained the standard of measurement in engineering plans, says
Ramamurthy Balasubramaniam from the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in
Kanpur.

Angulam and its multiples vitasti (12 angulams) and dhanus (108 angulams)
find mention in the Indian treatise Arthasastra by Kautilya who codified the
metrology that was prevalent around 300 B.C. But the exact value of angulam
was derived only in 2008 by Michel Danino, the French author who made India
his home.

Danino who studied the Dolavira settlement — the largest Harappan
civilization site in India — found1 that the dimensions used were exact
multiples of 1.904 metre, a unit that he assumed to be the dhanus mentioned
in Arthasastra. Further, taking dhanus to be 108 angulams, Danino derived
the value of angulam to be 1.763 cm.

Balasubramaniam, a professor of materials and metallurgical engineering,
says he got interested in metrology after Danino's derivation of the value
of angulam and his own observation2 that a terracotta scale of Harappan
civilisation from Kalibangan, that was given to him for analysis, indicated
markings of 1.75 cm.

"Seeing 1.75 cm markings on the Harappan scale and Danino's derived value of
1.763 cm for angulam no doubt excited me," Balasubramaniam told Nature
India. "That prompted me to carry out dimensional analysis of some of
India's historical structures to see if their builders used a standardised
unit of measurement," he said.

Balasubramaniam who studied the 1600 year old Delhi Iron Pillar3 found that
its dimensions "matched remarkably well" with the units of angulam and
dhanus of the Harappan civilization. "For example, the total height of the
pillar is precisely four dhanus and several measures come out as whole
numbers of vitasti," he said.

The IIT professor had also carried out dimensional analysis of the earliest
engineered caves at Barabar and Nagarjuni Hills in Bihar (Ashokan period,
300 B. C.), the Gupta Temple at Deogarh in Uttar Pradesh (6th century AD)
and very recently4 the Taj Mahal in Agra.

"All these studies confirm the use of a constant basic measurement unit of
angulam," the IIT professor said. "What is surprising is the fact that the
constant of 1.763 cm, when matched for the angulam, leads to the realisation
of the other multiples," Balasubramaniam said, "and surprisingly, important
historical structures of the Indian subcontinent show a more than good match
with these multiples."

For instance he found4 that the modular plan of the Taj Mahal complex is
based on use of grids of sides measuring 60 and 90 vitasti. The mausoleum
was designed on a master square of 270 vitasti to the side – a number that
allows the area to be divided into nine smaller squares of side 90 vitasti.

"Further subdivision of the 90 vitasti length in thirds is evident in the
length of the large arched doors (60 vitasti) and the small arched doors (30
vitasti) on each (outer) face of the mausoleum," Balasubramaniam explained.
"We now know that the modular design and architecture of the Taj is based on
Indian principles and there is nothing foreign in the design plan,"
Balasubramaniam said.

According to Balasubramaniam, the important outcome of his research is that
it has establishes the continuity of metrological tradition from the
Harappan civilisation down to pre-modern India indicated by the fact that
the unit of angulam matches so well the dimensions of important monuments.

"This implies an unbroken engineering tradition in the use of the angulam
over a period of more than 3900 years which is really amazing," he said. The
tradition was broken with the adoption of British units in early twentieth
century. "With the new knowledge we can now analyse all the important
ancient structures in India, using 1.763 cm as the standard with different
multiplying units. This work will open a new chapter in metrological
studies," he said.

But how did the angulam knowledge get transmitted through the ages to
maintain continuity? "It is reasonable to propose that the workers were
following some kind of scale that was handed over through generations," says
Balasubramaniam. "Otherwise, such a good match of the dimensions cannot be
due to chance."

References
Danino, M. New insights into Harappan town-planning, proportions, and units,
with special reference to Dholavira. Man Environ. 33, 66-79 (200
Balasubramaniam, R. et al. Analysis of terracotta scale of Harappan
civilization from Kalibangan. Curr. Sci. 95, 588-589 (200
Balasubramaniam, R. On the mathematical significance of the dimensions of
the Delhi Iron Pillar. Curr. Sci. 95, 766-770 (200
Balasubramaniam, R. New insights on the modular planning of the Taj Mahal.
Curr. Sci. 97, 42-49 (2009)

Dear Partha, You're quite correct as to the connections between Tamil and sanskrit. I regard Tamil in the same category as Ardhmagadhi or Pali or Sinhala, one of the Prakrits that evolved into Sanskrit. I am told modern Tamil has at least 50% sanskrit words in it, many of which may have been adopted by Sanskrit later. A language gets codified into grammatical form, only after it breaks out of the original area where it was spoken, or when it's grammmar is adopted by others. IOW, it needs a critical mass to become a codified langauge. I hope I am making sense.

Karigar ji, i do not wish to trivialize the problem, and there are other issues involved. Panini is the most studied individual by researchers who obtain a Ph.D in Sanskrit. itis a fascinating subject but does require painstaking and time consuming research. Hopefully we can direct some bright inquisitive minds to devote their life to this and other problems.

Panini is one of those enigmatic figures of Indian history who does not reveal when he lived. My researches on Panini are ongoing. I have a page on Panini AT MY WEBSITE indicstudies.us, which is mainly in the form of notes as i got factual data. I must admit that at this point we have only terminus post quem and terminus ante quem dates (in mathematics these are known as inf and sup respectively). This is itself an improvement over the dates prevalent which were widely bandied about and which were invariably terminus ante quem dates. But the Occidental historian invariably ignored the caveat and replaced the inequality with an equal sign. The most famous examples of such sloppiness was Maxmueller's date for the invasion of the Aryans (of course there was no such invasion) but he was quite explicit that it was the latest possible date and Raphson’s caveat on the date of the Buddha
Factors arguing a high chronology , is that there is evidence of post Paninian classical Sanskrit going as far back as the Sulva sutras. Interestingly I was under the impression that the BG was post paninian. But even if we find classical Sanskrit that is of high antiquity, it does not prove Panini precedes it, because there were other Grammarians before Panini and the transition to a codified sanskrit must have been gradual.
Factiors arguing a low chronology are that there must have been a script by the time he wrote the Ashtadhyayi. I find it mindboggling that he composed the 3959 rules without the use of writing materials and solely based on a srautic parampara. The Bottomline is there is wide gap between the 2 limits, but I would’nt be surpised if we settled on a date in the 3rd millennium BCE

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1272...ility-Mode

My presentation at TANA 2009 was received with adequate enthusiasm, in that it allows me to recruit and coopt more people to the cause. I was able to attend only a few of the talks since the fundamental goal of attendance was to network with as many people as I possibly could. Rajeev Malhotra was scheduled to speak but did not turn up due to personal reasons. But there were plenty of others I was able to meet

Prof SN Balagangadhara of U of Ghent, Belgium
Dr. KUsum Vyas of Houston
Dr. Rahul Chaturvedi of Hyannis ,Massachusetts
Sri Madhu Patel, editor of NRI Today,
Dr. T. H. CHOWDARY Dr. T.H. Chowdary (b 1931) holds a Bachelor's Degree in Telecommunications. He held executive, managerial and directorial positions (General Manager, Deputy Director General) in the Departments of (a) Information and Broad-casting and (b) Telecommunications, of the Government of India. He was the founding Chairman and Managing Director of India's Overseas Communications Corporation [VSNL].. http://www.drthchowdary.net/
Sri Swaminathan Venkataraman Mr. Swaminathan Venkataraman is a member of the Hindu American Foundation's Board of Directors. Mr. Venkataraman coordinates the interfaith efforts of the organization and is currently working with the World Parliament of Religions on their proposed Parliament in Dec 2009. Born and raised in Chennai India, Mr. Venkataraman graduated with a Bachelors in Technology from the Indian Institute of Technology, Madras and an MBA from the Indian Institute of Management Calcutta. He is based in San Francisco and is currently a Director with Standard & Poor's at their Utilities, Energy and Infrastructure Ratings group.
http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/
Mr. Stephen Knapp Stephen has dedicated himself to spreading the deepest and most practical levels of spiritual knowledge about the soul--our real identity. It is his strongest realization that our existence on this earthly plane becomes much easier and more vibrant the more we expand our spiritual awareness to perceive the higher dimensions and purpose of things around us.
I was able to network with a vast array of individuals.
The TANA bi annual meeting is a mammoth affair and it is impossible to attend all the sessions that they had.
In my talk I was able to highlight the following;
What if anything is the essence of the message from the Ancient Indic
Ancient India always had a ‘loyal opposition’. Those who did not believe in the Vedic infrastructure, namely Nastik Darshanas such as Baudhika, Jaina and Charvaka .Such diversity was inherent in the ethos of the Hindu, who has always been comfortable in embracing the consequences of such diversity. This is in marked contrast to the Occident where the edict of exclusive adherence was the norm. Non compliance resulted in dire and fatal consequences to the safety of the individual and the creation of new knowledge. We do not need lectures in dealing with diversity from those who advocate that the Parivar should be excluded because of its ideology, it is part and parcel of our Ethos or Hindutva. Either you are for diversity or you are against it. Those are the only two alternatives.
The Ancient Indic was eminently practical and generally avoided building huge mausoleums and other monuments, and as attested to by the rules of the chord
There are indeed common characteristics that transcend the various disciplines that the Indics studied.
The Indic took a Holistic view, in engineering parlance he was using a systems engineering approach
The Indic was far from other worldly. In fact he did not believe in entombing the dead with artifacts, needed for the living or creating extravagant mausoleums
Was he markedly different and unique from other Civilizations. The answer is yes and no.
Are their lessons to be learned from the Ancients. I will let the reader ponder on that point.