I was at a BBQ pool party last evening and somehow managed to discuss meditation and consciousness with a friend. He is an educated scientific professional and we got around to discussing consciousness since he inquired about my meditation practice. He wanted to know "What I meditate on" (or in other words, what was the goal of my meditation practice).
This is a very valid question and one that needs some thoughtful introspection in many cases...often the answer is not as easy as it seems on the surface. But that was not the problem here...my response to him was "Meditation is expanding the gap between thoughts"...so he immediately responded:
Me: "No no...the gap between thoughts are very valid and do exist. You only have to meditate a little while and it will become clear".
F: "So what happens in the gap?"
Me: "You stop thinking"
F: "How do you know you have stopped thinking?"
Me: "Because thoughts don't exist"
F: "But if you have realized that you aren't thinking, then you are thinking, aren't you?"
Me: "Yes...but you only realize that you experienced the gap after thoughts are triggered again and not during the gap".
All in all...a very deep rabbit hole to go down, if you ask me...
So we discussed more and he questioned the reason for meditation. I said "To find the unchanging, eternal consciousness that has always been there and will always be". So he asked:
F: "Where does this consciousness exist, inside me or outside?"
Me: "Both inside, outside, neither inside nor outside, neither not inside nor not outside"
F: "You are being silly!"
Me: "No...let me explain why"
Me: "Are you familiar with Subject and Object?"
F: "Sort of....object is inanimate and subject is animate or perhaps object is third-person whereas subject is first-person?"
Me: "Subject is the experiencer....Objected is that which is being experienced"
F: "Elaborate"
Me: "Subject, let's say you, are aware, you have a consciousness...that is experiencing this samosa you are eating right now"
Me: "So you are the subject, the samosa is the object, and you are interacting with it using your sense organs"
F: "Oh okay...so anything I experience is an object and I am a subject"
F: " And this subject is my Consciousness"
Me: "Okay...if you didn't have this samosa in your hand and weren't eating it, does it exist?"
F: "It may exist, even if I wasn't aware of it"
Me: "To you, your reality is the presence of absence of an object in your field of sensations...so if it isn't there in your field of sensations, it doesn't exist to YOU, right?"
F: "Okay...I see where you are going with this..."
Me: "Great! So you agree that the samosa doesn't exist if you haven't seen it or sensed it in any way?"
F: "No...just because I haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist"
Me: "So you are trying to say that someone else might have experienced it and told you about it?"
F: "Yes...isn't that how things are?"
Me: "Yes...these are called Pramanas...or proofs. There can be three types...Direct experience, testimony of a reliable source or logical inference. For eg: your friend told you that a samosa exists on the kitchen table and even though you haven't experienced it directly, you friend has, so it becomes a testimony of a reliable source. Similarly, there might be other things you can logically conclude and thus come up with...such and such a thing exists because of certain conditions being met"
F: "Right...so this creation thing...it is a matter of chance...there is no higher consciousness that has created this universe. The scientists have said it all began with a Big Bang. Surely, even if consciousness doesn't exist, the material universe can and does exist?"
Me: "If a tree fell in a forest and there was no one to see it fall, did it really fall?"
F: "Yes....no....I see what you are trying to say...but just because someone didn't see, how can I say it didn't happen?"
Me: "Isn't your reality created by those things that you can experience, or listen to others testify as being existent or logically infer as being existent?"
F: "Yes...but...how can we say it doesn't exist...we don't know!"
Me: "Exactly, if you don't know it doesn't exist, do you know that it does exist?"
F: "The probability of it existing, mathematically...."
Me: "If there was no Consciousness to witness and experience the universe, then there would be no Math neither probablity, right?"
F: "Right!"
Me: "So you agree that Consciousness is the most important function of the Universe"
F: "Yes...but how can you say that there is only one underlying consciousness and that it exists forever and will continue to be that way?"
Me: "There have been Rishis who went into a deep meditative state called Samadhi and came up with the knowledge that all universe is One...there is nothing else. And have prescribed meditation and yoga to be a path to get there, to the realization of One-ness"
At this point I had to get up and discuss something else with someone since it was getting every heavy....but thought I'd share this interesting experience with the Medhavis
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written by devaguraji, 2010-08-09 03:07:41
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written by partha, 2010-08-08 15:24:32
Spontaneous flow.
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written by devaguraji, 2010-08-08 07:08:11
the parts to the reel are the same as components of the mind
the images in the pictures or the concept of the writing infact sparks the SYNAPSE to produce a new tree branch that is the base root of all the leaves
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written by devaguraji, 2010-08-08 06:53:09
the root of a plant looked at in a mirror might be a good parallel to get the mirror neurons concept Partha the new plain
narration
alice
...there are a small few number of true Krishna Bhaktas
a Krishna Bhakta is someone who believes in Krishna for real
...someone who works for Krishna
an agnostic is not a Krishna Bhakta
...a Krishna Bhakta is gifted with Krishnas energies is well traveled
relates to those of similar dharma as well
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written by partha, 2010-08-08 04:54:36
You must have heard of mirror neurons.
Do watch a video in which Dr Vilayanur Ramachandran explains to you how these wonder components of the brain's network can help you imitate, emulate,empathize, even actually feel another person's sensations, of course under special conditions.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
Why were mirror neurons formed in the brain? To make the brain at least partly social rather than entirely selfish?
Regards. Partha
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written by narensomu, 2010-07-26 21:08:55
A very interesting conversation indeed.
People familiar with Eastern traditions find this easier to accept-
"To find the unchanging, eternal consciousness that has always been there and will always be".For eg., one word that means " God" in Tamil is kadavuL-its said to denote just this concept.
Dear Jim
Down that rabbit hole, an entirely different plain lies indeed.
Warm regards
ns
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written by rudra, 2010-07-23 12:27:35
Indeed...we will end up in a new plain...do share with us your experiences if you would like.
Pradipda,
Welcome back. Please do add your comments to the discussion to correct me where I might have erred.
Warm Regards,
Dwai
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written by JClark, 2010-07-22 15:24:31
a vast abstraction
...i thought i had to climb out
to amazement after the fall to find an entire new plain
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written by partha, 2010-07-20 20:06:32
A lucid account of a very intelligent conversation.
Me: "Yes...but you only realize that you experienced the gap after thoughts are triggered again and not during the gap".
So we discussed more and he questioned the reason for meditation. I said "To find the unchanging, eternal consciousness that has always been there and will always be".
What you discussed when you say you discussed more can also be interesting to the uninitiated person. This is because you have just mentioned the gap between thoughts and you are about to discuss the real objective of meditation, to find the eternal consciousness. It will be interesting to travel again with the reader from the thought gap to the search for consciousness.
Regards. Partha
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