Comments for Secularism, Colonial hegemony and Hindu "fanaticism" at http://medhajournal.com , comment 1 to 14 out of 14 comments http://medhajournal.com Tue, 21 May 2013 03:12:23 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3832 Dear Captain, I am not sure if your analysis of what my drivers are for this article is right, but I think, right or wrong, it digresses from the key points I am trying to make. The argument you use has both factual as well as philosophical weaknesses. Factual: you claim we have 83% Hindus in India. When you look at it in terms of the pre-partition Indian geography, that is not true. (The fact that a large number of Muslims were pushed in to East/West Pakistan, and dharmiks pushed the other way, creates an ideal scenario for the old adage; there are lies, damn lies and statistics.) Secondly, if you were to look at it in terms of geography, and look over 500 years, the area that has dharmiks as a majority has CONTINOUSLY shrunk. (By the way, this is true if you were to look at post partition India at the tahsil level too. You will see shrinkage of areas where Hindus are a majority.) Philosophical (and the more important): You have not made any argument against the central thrusts of my argument; that the dharmic way (each to his own) is a higher moral, more pluralistic and a more humanistic approach than the Abrahamic way (ours is the only truth, and everybody else is either confused or devil/idol worshippers.) If you disagree with that perspective, then I would like to hear your arguments. If you agree, then the only corollary point I am making is that dharma can do for ‘religionism’ what America has done for racism on this planet – made it not OK (which does not mean that it doesn’t still exist). - Arjun Bhagat Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:34:35 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3831 - Arjun Bhagat Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:34:04 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3829 Oh Captain, As you would see in my latest comment, I have the greatest respect for the individual's freedom to choose his own path to truth. For most people, the most convenient is what one is conveniently on from the time of birth. Quite occasionally a person of his own volition chooses a different path. Paths recommended along with force or monetary or other incentives do not have real value. I remember the lovely real life story you wrote in these columns about a Professor and the woman whom he loved. They each had respect for the other's religious persuasion. The question is not of numbers or of threats because of numbers. It is about being allowed to stay in one's faith unprovoked and undisturbed. Unrelated to this topic, I do remember looking at some numbers in the Sachar report and wondering about the Christian evangelist's preference for tribals over dalits and the Ambedkarian Buddhist's inclination to look for dalits. Islamic converters have been inactive for quite a while now. Warm regards. Partha. - P. Desikan Sat, 27 Jun 2009 06:01:49 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3828 Dear Shri Arjun, Most of your writings has taken from western Christian fulminations.Pat Robertson even advocated killing Hugo chavez because he nationalised Ammerican oil companies. Let us discuss behaviour of Indian Christians.Today after 250 years of Colonial rule we have 2.5% Christian population.Inspite of socalled "violent" Muslim rule we have only 13% Muslims.The Hindus just survived by paying Jizia ornot falling victims to Evangelists under British rule.Today India is independent.We have 83% Hindus.In what way they are threatened by Indian Christians or Indian Evangelists? We have laws in India which bans forced conversion. So i find your lament is of one of the Hindu NRIs who face racism in subtle form in USA/UK. - captainjohann Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:21:01 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3790 Dear Arjun, I reread your serious and masterly blog once again and was struck by the aptness of your quoting the Gita to assert unequivocally that [quote]though there are many different methodologies as well as objects of worship (only some of which are listed) they all lead to the same goal of enlightenment.[/quote] This indeed is the basis of a sanatanic Hindu's respect for paths very different from his, fully complementing his desire to be free to tread his own path to truth. Warm regards. Partha. - P. Desikan Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:06:31 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3787 OOoops! Like the hare I raced off without the baton! Thank you Partha, Arjun for bringing me back! Arjun, given your interests, focus and considerable expertise in this area, could you please drop by on the Tharoor... discussion when you have the odd few minutes to spare? Arya_Supremo is also trying to think through something: his goal is similar though both his starting point and point of focus are very different. But then.... I very much hope we see you! - Deshika.N.Kumar Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:52:26 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3784 Hindus & other Dharmic/Indic traditions -especially their intellectual & motivated class, in order to survive, need to band together as an articulate & united 'interest group' in today's world, so that these key issues are made center stage, and 'leaders' are held to it. These leaders could be both Political dispensations with the power to legislate/enforce (eg. Govts Western, Indian, etc. ) and Internal 'leaders' (i.e. political outfits-especially in India- especially the ones claiming the mantle of 'hindu leaders' who fish for votes from concerned hindus. This is the reality we live in, & a well argued public stand is much more key to survival than the empty talk of 'spirituality' that we give each other & the world... - karigar Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:48:44 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3781 Could not have said it better. Thanks Partha. This whole topic (of what can be done about this problem) is worthy of some deeper thought, in order to come up with a viable, implementable strategy. I will work on this. Regds. - Arjun Bhagat Sun, 21 Jun 2009 07:34:30 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3780 Dear Deshika and Arjun, We do have the situation,[quote]The Indian diaspora has earned a tremendous amount of respect (specially in the West) for its intellectual capacity and family structure. That is a great starting point.[/quote] Arjun would like these NRIs to spearhead a definite, if gradual program of educating the passive providers of money abroad against providing it to the active evangelists who act in India, pointing out to the genuinely benevolent aspects of Vedic thought, including aspects such as Yoga to which the West is already well exposed. Perhaps simultaneously the same group will also educate the passive young hopefuls in India who are training to become leaders in various fields including the ones who wait to become NRIs, by creating the infrastructure in India. We cannot be dependent on political support from India for the present. Those of the politicians who are bothered to preserve religious status quo in India and prevent conversions through force or allurement, must organize themselves better to begin to count in governmental decision making. All this will take time, but purposeful beginnings have to be made. Regards. Partha. - P. Desikan Sun, 21 Jun 2009 06:44:15 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3774 Well written (as was yours on the secular-saffron squeeze) - a good espousal! you suggest that 'if India can get it right ......' but another ongoing discussion on TMJ appears to indicated that the prerequisites for the 'if' do not, at the moment at any rate, exist among those in power. Anyway..... I have a couple of questions:- a.Reports from various sources seem to suggest that those in the first group are not particularly interested in the effects on another tradition since this is their effort as soldiers of Christ. Also.... Do you have any idea of denominations, monies involved etc? b.I was interested in your example of RM being called a 'Hindu Taliban'. However it could be a one off example. But perhaps you have got/ come across India related documentation / statistical data which, unlike isidelhi, doesn't leave the reader trying to read between the lines? - Deshika.N.Kumar Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:12:37 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3769 Dear Partha, Thanks for your comment. I doubt that our traditions allow for generating 'torch bearers' in the way Christianity does. Having said that, what we have to do is to look at our cultural DNA the way it is - with its strengths and its weaknesses - and then come up with a strategy that works for us, based on our own cultural DNA. I do not believe that a comment here would provide me with the space I would need to be prescriptive, but a few pointers that need fleshing out: - The Indian diaspora has earned a tremendous amount of respect (specially in the West) for its intellectual capacity and family structure. That is a great starting point. (Does it make sense that otherwise intelligent, worldly wise and smart people are a bunch of idiot savants following superstitious, backward mumbo-jumbo?? There are only 2 choices available. Either we are really dumb folks who follow backward practices, or there must be some rational and spiritual value in our traditions that keeps us in them.) - In terms of my article, the first group, the passive ones who give donations, and thus provide the corpus used by the other two groups to proselytize, is the soft underbelly of this juggernaut. They need to be educated a) about our traditions (not so bad, really) and b) about the damage their monies are causing in societies such as ours - Yoga, meditation, vegetarianism; all of these are growing rapidly, specially amongst the more educated people in the west. This is no longer a phenomenon on the fringes of society. - Combine the three points above, and we have the point of the spear that should allow us to puncture the expanding balloon that Christian evangelism is today. On a side note, we do have to stop allowing the Tharoors of this world to be smug and sanctimonious about their Hinduism vs. the goonda hinduism by parsing out what guys like him conflate into one monolithic problem. People like him never seem to have a word to say about what the others are doing that is morally inferior. Their categories and terminologies are quintessential European to start with. With intellectuals like him, the battle is over before it has even been debated. (None of this is to take away from the fundamental adharma of killing or looting or bullying or scaring another human being; on that one, I am in complete agreement with Tharoor.) Regds Arjun - Arjun Bhagat Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:23:03 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3768 Dear Medhavis, Could we get hold of Sri Tharoor's email id? If so, we could forward him this article as an excellent refutation of his article (which is being currently discussed) on TMJ as well. I know that this was written at least 3-4 years ago by Arjun. But it's relevance is ever more significant today. - Dwai Lahiri Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:35:09 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3748 Thanks indeed, for a powerful presentation of a very desirable cause. Permit me to linger on a very late sentence (or a pair of them, if you will)in the thought assembly. [quote]The question is, do the torchbearers of dharma in India have the intellectual prowess and media skills required to succeed? For humanity’s sake, I fervently hope so.[/quote] Are we able to identify the torchbearers of Dharma, the way you identified the three-tier human resource available to the most sophisticated of the three Abrahamic faiths, (which incidentally can expect tacit support from the second Abrahamic faith and useful indifference from the third?) How do the rest of the Dharmic adherents empower them? Can the various Dharmic forces align together? At the very least, will most of them at least stand by and applaud or keep quiet, when some take up the cause and work on it? Regards. Partha. - P. Desikan Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:10:25 +0100 http://medhajournal.com/wanderer\'s-ruminations/567-secularism-colonial-hegemony-and-hindu-fanaticism.html#comment-3717 Thanks for the essay. Regarding the UN Decl of Human Rights, Dr Arvind Sharma of McGill has rightly proposed (in his conference on world religions in 2007, & otherwise; that we need to move beyond 'freedom to convert'- which only empowers organized groups hunting for 'harvest' i.e. easy prey, to 'freedom from having to give up native religion & culture'....noting all the while the Judeo-Christian categories under which the UN Decl was concieved. Your other points are also well taken mostly, except that even in case of ISKCON, there was & is no effort to Demonize the convert's original religion, as is the usual stock-in-trade of the Abrahamic Prosyeltization Enterprises. - karigar Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:48:38 +0100