Editor's note: Below talk becomes even more relevant in the context of this Newsweek article (Click Here), putting a broader & deeper spotlight on Hinduism.
Here is the transcript of a talk on Hindu identity by Rajiv Malhotra of Infinity Foundation at the 23rd Anniversary of the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam in Saylorsburg, PA, USA on Sep 14, 2008.
Hindu Identity
Transcript of a talk given by Rajiv Malhotra
Over the past few months, I have conducted several brainstorms and workshops on issues concerning Hindus, both in US and India, including among the youth. Listening to a large number of people in these meetings, I have crystallized the specific issues that we Hindus face so that discussions can start in a very crisp way about these.
The central overriding issue that I have identified from these interactions is the issue of Hindu identity. I divide the issue of Hindu identity into three further issues. First is the very important question: “Why do we even need a Hindu identity?” This is a very important point that comes up over and over again. And I will focus on this but let me briefly deal with the other two.
Once a person has crossed the first hurdle of “why do we need a Hindu identity?” then the second question arises: “What is the Hindu identity? What does it mean to be a Hindu?”
We Hindus don’t have one historical event which is the defining event of our faith. We don’t have a canon that is frozen and fixed in time. We don’t have a canon as a definable concept.
But we have many sacred texts, not one. Some people ask me, what is your book? And I tell them, we don’t have a single book, we have a whole library! Because of the very nature of revelation, the experiences of our ‘rishis’ and idea of living enlightenment in our tradition, we have an inexhaustible supply of enlightened gurus all through our history. Hence, we Hindus have a huge corpus of spiritual knowledge.
So what exactly is my Hindu identity? Is it about a deity? Is it about a Purana? Is it about Vedas? Is it about Yoga? This is an important second issue that arises only after we have crossed the first hurdle of “Do we even need a Hindu identity?”
Once a person is sure he needs a Hindu identity and has gone through the second process of defining what is that Hindu identity, the third issue arises, which is “How do we project this Hindu identity in a respectable manner as Americans, as modern people, as post-modern people, and so on?”
So these are the three issues: Why Hindu identity is needed, what is the Hindu identity, and how do we project it? The ‘what, why and how’ of Hindu identity are the important issues that I feel Hindus have not dealt with enough.
The first of these three issues is “Why do we need a Hindu identity?” This is what I would like to spend a couple of minutes on. I find that there are three major blockages when you discuss with Hindus the Hindu identity.
The first blockage is: “Will Hindu identity be a source of tension and divisiveness? Will it divide us? Will it create a conflict in society?” In response to this, what I want to offer to you to think about is the following.
Hinduism Offers Mutual Respect, Not Merely Tolerance
There indeed are certain kinds of identities in this world which are divisive. This is because they claim exclusivity. If an identity claims exclusivity, it argues that: “For me to be valid, you cannot be valid. For me to be right, for my sacred book to be valid, anything that’s different must be invalidated. It has to be dealt with, maybe by violence, maybe by non-violence, but it has to be dealt with and it cannot be considered valid.”
Such an identity of course creates conflict. And such an identity can at best offer tolerance of others who are different. But ‘tolerance’ is a very patronizing term. It means that “I don’t really think you are legitimate but I will put up with you.” This is what tolerance is. Luckily, Hinduism does not have this problem because Hindus do not claim exclusivity. Instead, they offer mutual respect rather than just tolerance.
In fact, in many inter-faith dialogues that I have attended, they try to have a resolution where everyone says they will offer tolerance and that “we will tolerate each other.” And invariably I stand up and say let us edit that phrase, remove the word tolerance and put in the word mutual respect. It is amazing how much controversy this creates.
People are simply not willing to offer mutual respect because they believe “for offering you respect for your religion, I have validated your religion. And when I have validated your religion, I can no longer claim my exclusivity. And for no longer claiming my exclusivity, I am going to be blamed by people in my faith for violating one of my injunctions, one of my requirements.
So this business of shifting the discussion from tolerance to mutual respect can have a huge cascading effect. And I would like all of you to try it. Whenever you go to an inter-faith meet, talk about mutual respect and explain why it is not the same thing as tolerance. Because mutual respect means: “You are legitimate in what you are doing and I want you to consider me legitimate too for what I am doing in my faith.” And this is something that the Hindus can contribute to the world very proudly as one of the most important things that the world needs right now.
Hinduism has mutual respect to offer to other faiths, not merely tolerance. So this resolves the first major hurdle to having a Hindu identity. It provides the answer to the question: “Will Hindu identity be a source of divisiveness, tension and conflict?” In fact, with more Hindus claiming a Hindu identity which sets the example of positive mutual respect for each other, that would actually help reduce tensions.
Hindus can take the moral high ground and ask other religions to match us and do the same and offer mutual respect. If everybody in the world starts doing this, it would actually reduce tensions. So claiming Hindu identity that includes mutual respect for other faith systems is not a problem at all.
Hyphenated Identities are Acceptable
The second blockage among Hindus for having a Hindu identity comes up a lot in conversations. This blockage says: “We are all Americans. Why does it matter if we are Indians or Japanese or Chinese or Hindus or Muslims? It shouldn’t matter because we are all Americans now. So let us all be just Americans. Why do we need a separate identity at all?”
This is an important discussion on the nature of America. First of all, America respects and expects hyphenated identities. As far as national identities in America are concerned, there are Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Japanese Americans, Indian Americans, and so on. This is not considered a problem at all in the American society.
The hyphenated identity of American citizens actually constitutes the very fabric of America. This is what makes America distinct and unique. So, for Hindus to have a hyphenated identity as “Hindu Americans” is not a problem or contradiction at all.
Secondly, as far as religious identities are concerned, again America is very pluralistic. It expects people to have a positive religious identity. It is perfectly all right for a person to say “I am a Jewish American” or “I am a Buddhist or Muslim American or Presybitarian or Catholic or Methodist or Baptist.”
Therefore it is perfectly ok for you as a bonafide American to be a Hindu at the same time. It does not undermine your ‘American-ness.’
Assert Your Identity as a Hindu
A lot of my work involves engaging and correcting stereotypes and biases about India and Hindus. Many a times, I have come across very well meaning offers from Americans, such as from schools and media, to speak about the Hindu identity.
The Americans say that they are very happy to have finally fond a Hindu who wants to meet them to discuss what Hinduism means. They complain that there are simply not enough Hindus in America who want to claim their Hindu identity and explain to them what it is all about.
The problems in explaining Hindu identity to other people is not from the Americans’ side, but from our side because we Hindus shy away from asserting our religious identity. This is essentially a problem from the Hindu side. We have deliberately chosen not to talk about our identity with people of other faiths.
You should go to the local media, schools and colleges and participate in a religious dialogue as a Hindu. Take care to identify yourself very explicitly as a Hindu and not in terms of some generic universal spirituality and New Age stuff where you are really hiding because you are shameful or fearful of your Hindu identity.
Even if you positively assert that you are a Hindu and that is what you stand for, I don’t think in most cases you will experience any resistance from the Americans. In fact, you will be welcomed by them in discussions.
Is Hinduism Against Identities?
The third blockage among Hindus for asserting their Hindu identity that I come across is the most serious blockage of all because it comes internally, from within our own tradition. There are many Hindus who have this confusion and many Hindu ‘acharyas’ and gurus propagate this confusion. This confusion has to do with the following.
In a recent dialogue about Hinduism organized to involve Hindu kids, most of them raised their hands and asked: “But we were told that everything in this world is ‘maya.’ So why do I have to be a Hindu? I could be a Christian or a Muslim tomorrow. Does it matter? It is all a “mithya” and “maya anyway. This whole world is an illusion.”
An idea persists among Hindus that the Advaita philosophy has taught us non-dualism and therefore there is no such thing as my individual identity. We are told that this identity is a stumbling block and we should get rid of it. Indeed, we can quote Advaita to actually reach that conclusion. And the unfortunate thing is that a lot of Hindus do that. They quote the Advaita philosophy to claim that we should not have any worldly identity.
A lot of non-Hindus when they are discussing against a Hindu quickly put the latter on the defensive by saying: “Aha! But see, you are not supposed to have an identity because you believe in Advaita. So there is nothing for you to defend because you believe in the non-dualism of Advaita.” The Hindu becomes very nervous. This is a theological and philosophical issue that our gurus and acharyas really need to take up.
In response to this argument of “dualism means no identity,” the Hindus should argue that in the Gita, Arjuna is asked by Krishna to take claim of an identity. There are Kauravas and Pandavas. To carry out his dharma, Arjuna has to be a Kshatriya. All these are identities. Being a Kaurava or Pandava is an identity. Being a Kshatriya is an identity. Arjuna is in fact told by Krishna that you have work to do and you cannot run away from your work and duty in the name of non-dualism. This is the message of Gita.
Most Hindus I know are very competitive people in their mundane day-to-day lives. They do not tell their kids to flunk their exams because it is all ‘mithya.’ If a Hindu is a surgeon, he does not argue that whether the patient lives or dies does not matter because the whole world is an illusion! We do not say that it doesn’t matter if we end up in prison because the prison is just ‘maya.’ I don’t think that Hindus are such naïve or moronic people when it comes to their personal lives. In fact, Hindus are very competitive. They are very sharp businessmen. They are very skilful negotiators for their own personal stake. When it comes to his own personal interest, the Hindu is very clear about these matters.
The solution to this obstacle is that we have to bring our spiritual knowledge into our daily lives and perform a ‘lila.’ In a lila, you have to have an identity because you are performing God’s work in this world that is only possible through adopting a unique identity. Imagine that you are taking part in a theater and have been casted by the director to perform a certain role. You cannot get mixed up and say to him: “Well, I will perform all the roles or any role that I want.” It is understood that you have to perform only the role that you have been given by the director.
Think of this life as a lila (theatre) in which you have been given a particular role by God, the overall director. You will realize that your role has a particular identity that you have to adopt and defend throughout. If we don’t get this point, we will simply turn into schizophrenic Hindus.
What will then happen is that you will be forced to restrict Hinduism to ashrams and turn off your Hindu self while operating in the real world. This is because you would think that to live and work in the real world, you have to be practical and be able to compete, which in turn requires taking up various real-world identities.
But since Hinduism negates all self-identities, you will conclude that you will have to switch off your Hindu self in day-to-day life and become somebody else. Then when you go back to an ashram or spiritual retreat, you will become a non-dualistic Hindu again who does not believe in any identity.
This confusion has created a bipolar type of society and a lot of Hindus suffer from this confusion. They think that having a unique worldly identity is somehow incompatible with Hinduism because of advaiata!
This issue involves living the full life, not only the spiritual life but also the social life. It involves carrying out one’s dharma, playing the lila in this world and performing a particular role which involves having an identity. There is an ultimate reality which is non-dual and there is also a provisional reality (material word) which is our kurushetra, karmashetra and dharmashetra where we have to perform roles and therefore we have to have an identity.
I think this is the central issue, the central source of confusion which is preventing a lot of people from claiming a Hindu identity. The sooner a conversation starts to clarify these points in the minds of the Hindus, the better.
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written by Raju, 2009-08-29 08:25:16
Dear Partha and Pradip,
I like your analysis. It is good that both of you have moved discussion from philosophy to practical aspects of Hinduism or Hindu identity. Pradip has taken lead in answering Mogambo’s good questions.
First generations Asian-Indian-American-Hindus can discuss and debate Hindu spiritual philosophy because fortunately their roots were formed through social-cultural-religious environment that was spiritual in nature. Now for second generation American-Hindus say of Asian-India origin do not have such a social-cultural-religious environment that is rooted in Hindu spiritualism. This type of environment needs to be created/established/strengthened. This is required as besides spiritual level we have existence at physical and mental level (social, cultural etc).
We observe that it is through stories, rites, ceremonies, rituals, practices prayer, temples, festival, visit to pilgrimage places, etc young ones are introduced to spiritual philosophy. Act of rituals, prayers, festivals, stories etc become useful only when focus is on transmission of spiritual philosophy or grounded in spirituality. In Hinduism there is supposed to be no conflict between spiritual philosophy and practices/acts. This is how spiritual values are transferred from one generation to next generation. Reality is that process of value transmission is same for all types of values; hence focus should be always on spiritual values.
I agree/believe that external things such rituals, rites, ceremonies, practices etc may vary from country to country. In fact these things are likely to different for every family. Common things are likely to be belief in personal and/or absolute Brahman, Purusarthas, law of karma, reincarnation, sources of knowledge/Shruti, acceptance of different paths for self-realization – Bhakti Yoga, Jana yoga etc.
Swami Vivekananda, Shri Paramahansa Yogananda and others introduced to west to Hindu spiritual philosophy but responsibility of taking to the next level is on the shoulders of Hindus residing in the western world. It is in this context I agree with author that Hindus should actively participate in interfaith meetings in school/colleges/cities, establish centers/processes for passing values to next generation and communicate/share various aspects of Hinduism through various media.
Regards,
Rajendra Rajput
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written by P. Desikan, 2009-08-28 20:00:53
1. Raju quotes Dr Radhakrishnan exceedingly relevantly,
Hinduism insists not on religious conformity but on spiritual and ethical outlook in life.
I concur with the thought and therefore submit
a) that a significant pointer to the Hindu identity could be a combination of continuing one's own vichara and having respect for differences in the vicharas of others and
b) some serious attempt be made in 'Hindu/Indic societies around the world to help the very young get interested in the merit of spiritual and ethical outlook and values.
2.Indians who are not Indian origin Americans (like me) may sometimes not get the exact nuances of the requirement of Hindu/Indic identity that Hindu/Indic Indian Americans want to possess and appear to possess. Our participation in such debate is still born out of our desire to contribute our bit to the thinking on the subject. There must also be several models available of the migrant Indic, both in developed and developing nations, all of which deserve to be looked at, apart from the views of US Desis and Indian residents.
Regards. Partha.
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written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2009-08-28 10:39:54
does the author mean to say that american-hindus will have a different identity from indian-hindus?" rel="nofollow" target="wikipedia">[mogambo thinks it is strange that a "hindu" identity is being forged but it somehow abdicates the largest population of hindus, that is indian hindus.
does the author mean to say that american-hindus will have a different identity from indian-hindus?
Yes, the author thinks that american-hindus will have a different identity from indian-hindus. There will of course be similarities too. There is nothing strange about such a thing. Indonesian Hindus, Nepalese Hindus, Mauritian Hindus, British Hindus and Hindus of other countries all have their unique identity. There is for example no caste system in Bali.
There is already a Hindu-identity in India with its strengths and weaknesses. It is in America that a Hindu identity is required urgently. Otherwise the second generation Hindus will drift away from Hinduism.
or is the hope that since indians ape the west let the western hindus define hindu-ness and then the indian-hindus will ape that too?" title="wikipedia:
is a "Hindu" identity to exclude the facts of hindu society in the largest hindu population and source of hindu-ness?
or is the hope that since indians ape the west let the western hindus define hindu-ness and then the indian-hindus will ape that too?" rel="nofollow" target="wikipedia">
is a "Hindu" identity to exclude the facts of hindu society in the largest hindu population and source of hindu-ness?
or is the hope that since indians ape the west let the western hindus define hindu-ness and then the indian-hindus will ape that too?
American Hindus will have to create sources of Hindu-ness in America. For example, many British Hindus consider certain British rivers as holy as Ganga where they can throw the ashes of their dead. American Hindus should designate some American river as holy. This is just one example.
It is also a misunderstanding to think that only people who are Hindus in America are of Indian extraction. Pew research says that at least 100,000 Hindus are of non-Indian American extraction. So there is no question of aping as suggested here.
I talk to American Hindus who are of Swedish extraction, of British extraction etc. I will in future post some conversations with them. I tell them that they should keep their culture and only accept Hindu spiritual practices. It will be unfair to tell American Hindus of non-Indian extraction that they must become Indian in order to be Hindu. They obviously can not become Indian. The spiritual ideas of Hindu dharma are universal and should not be conflated with Indian cultural practices.
It is much more difficult to reform the Hindu-identity in India than in America. Let me give an example. Many western converts to Hinduism became both Hindu and Brahmin. In India such a thing would be very difficult. The caste difficulties can be solved in one day if the parliament passes a law saying that a Hindu is free to declare herself to be of any caste. In America there is no such difficulty.
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written by mogambo, 2009-08-27 15:01:13
IMO the discussion here, to be based on the talk/article, is specifically about the social aspect of identity, i.e. asserting an explicit identity, a Hindu identity. After having clarified that this Hindu Identity is inclusive & not meant to exclude anybody willing to understand & embrace it; and also not meant to denigrate those who would prefer to keep other identities as their 'religious' and/or cultural identity; this identity needs to be projected unambiguously in society.
mogambo's understanding of the authors position is similar to that of Karigar sahab
and mogambo would like to raise issue with it since that would mean narrowing the definition to meet only certain criteria or risk becoming an impossible task given the multifarious nature of hindu identities.
The basic point is this, globally society today has many competing identities being offered as Highly Branded 'choices'. This is just a statement of fact. As such, Hindus (especially thoe ones who see themselves as such in their personal lives) have no option but to project their own Hinduness in a manner that suits their personality & background.
The 'smart' choice resorted to by so many successful Hindus , that of being some sort of 'Generic' Wunderkinds (without reference to their own backgrounds -"Oh Yeah, I was born hindu, but now I'm just a "Modern Spiritual Humanist") is less & less an intellectually honest option...
mogambo would like to know why a hindu cannot claim a personal spiritual and traditional identity as his own? why is there a need to forge a generic identity?
all those things that the author has recommended and observed can be achieved by claiming an individual identity
or is the attempt at trying to stand up a marketable megalith and thus subject to becoming another commodity?
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written by mogambo, 2009-08-27 14:53:55
sn't this irrelevant in America. It is my impression that the author of this article is really talking about Hindu identity in America. Here in a few decades all the different linguistic identities will die because of English.
mogambo thinks it is strange that a "hindu" identity is being forged but it somehow abdicates the largest population of hindus, that is indian hindus.
does the author mean to say that american-hindus will have a different identity from indian-hindus?
caste system is nowadays being trivialised by certain quarters of indian intelligentia as being somehow a creation of the british. that is wrong and attempts to forge a new identity for hindus might lead to omissions and commissions such as those
How is caste system trivialised? It probably is a fact that the British tried to sharpen the caste divide in order to divide and rule. That would be very natural thing to do.
Moreover caste is not an important issue in America. The first generation Hindus might have a caste identity. The second and third generation would consider caste to be an oddity. In fact caste is only a big problem in India. Indonesian Hindus do not have a caste system.
again the same thing:
is a "Hindu" identity to exclude the facts of hindu society in the largest hindu population and source of hindu-ness?
or is the hope that since indians ape the west let the western hindus define hindu-ness and then the indian-hindus will ape that too?
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written by Raju, 2009-08-27 08:50:26
Human life is like a song that has both constant theme and changing notes. Constant part corresponds to identity/precept of Brahman (Being) and changing part is based on the experience in this world associated with roles, culture, social, political and other forces (Becoming). It is for this reason our identity in this world has Being part which takes precedence over Becoming part. I believe Hindu identity that embraces both material world and non-dual Brahman yet has focus on SatChitaAnada Brahman will not only survive all desh and all kal but also achieve peace and harmony. This is based on the assumption that Hindu identity should in some way correspond to Hindu view of life.
Shri Radhakrishnan explained this very elegantly in his book ‘The Hindu View of Life’
“Hinduism is more a way of life than a form of thought. While it gives absolute liberty in the world of thought it enjoins a strict code of practice. The theist and the atheist, the skeptic and the agnostic may all be Hindu if they accept Hindu system of culture and life. Hinduism insists not on religious conformity but on spiritual and ethical outlook in life.” (Page 55)
Ref: The Hindu View of Life.
By Radhakrishnan, Sarvepalli, New York: Macmillan 1957
We see here that Radhakrishnan’s description that Hinduism is not narrow but wide as it includes many things. Hindu identity like the Hindu way life is inclusive, extensive yet distinct. It is very diverse at the same time there is a common link. I believe this is possible as spiritual philosophy is at the core of Hinduism.
I agree with authors view that -
“The problems in explaining Hindu identity to other people is not from the Americans’ side, but from our side because we Hindus shy away from asserting our religious identity. This is essentially a problem from the Hindu side. We have deliberately chosen not to talk about our identity with people of other faiths.”
We all just have to careful that while asserting our identity we should not lose neither intensity nor extensity of our faith. This becomes clear when we read following.
“Faith its degeneration when alone—bigotry fanaticism—sectarianism. Narrowing finite therefore cannot get to the infinite Sometimes gain in intensity but loses in extensity—and in bigots & fanatics become worship of his own pride & vanity.”
Ref: The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda/Volume 5/Writings: Prose and Poems/Reason, Faith and Love
I believe Hinduism is essentially experiential in nature and has many different paths (Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga etc) to experience Brahman (personal and/or absolute) and realize everything as manifestation of Brahman. I think this is what has given Hindus both extensity and intensity with respect to spiritual personality. This is key distinguishing attribute of Hindu identity for over 5000 years.
Regards,
Rajendra Rajput
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written by karigar, 2009-08-26 11:55:09
After all, it is of the same class as renouncing one's family/clan....we don't see too many Hindus doing that, do we?
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written by karigar, 2009-08-26 11:51:41
The basic point is this, globally society today has many competing identities being offered as Highly Branded 'choices'. This is just a statement of fact. As such, Hindus (especially thoe ones who see themselves as such in their personal lives) have no option but to project their own Hinduness in a manner that suits their personality & background.
The 'smart' choice resorted to by so many successful Hindus , that of being some sort of 'Generic' Wunderkinds (without reference to their own backgrounds -"Oh Yeah, I was born hindu, but now I'm just a "Modern Spiritual Humanist") is less & less an intellectually honest option...
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written by Raju, 2009-08-25 14:08:56
Brahman is supra rational and the relation between material world and Brahman is intimate and interwoven. Reality is like a Klein bottle. Yes, Brahman takes precedence over every thing. Reality of this material world does not have status of ultimate reality, yet at the same time Brahman is simultaneously our context and content. We cannot neglect neither our material world nor non-dual Brahman. It is for this reason we have to face both the world.
Now once we have Hindu identity that embraces world of duality and non-dual Brahman, then we have some thing that rest of the world will accept it is valid and say "We are all Hindus Now” may be in 500 years from now.
I agree with Pradip that it is another matter to figure out the actual details of such an identity.
Regards,
Raju
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written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2009-08-25 13:20:21
Nor is a Hindu identity merely identity politics as suggested here. A hindu identity need not be exclusive in character but could be inclusive as suggested by mraju. A workable Hindu identity should be able to achieve peace and harmony not just in India but every where and all the time (all desh and all kal). This should be the guiding principle. It is another matter to figure out the actual details of such an identity.
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written by Rajiv Malhotra, 2009-08-25 12:53:50
In the Vedanta of Ramanuja, we are meant to exercise ethical choice in this world. In Jiva Goswami's further refinement of Ramanuja, the individual does exist but not separately from God, and in this relative existence he has to live righteously. The world as lila requires positive engagement with it and not an escape. In Shaivism the individual has a positive outlook on life, so also in Tantra...
Even in maya-vada there is the realm of karma we are in, where we perform our dharma. We do not claim exemption from karma/dharma by citing that it is all mithya, anyway. Notice how the same fellows invoking some ultimate reality to copout from this-worldly responsibilities live a double life by optimizing their own self iterests in professional, business, and personal spheres. Only when it comes to working for dharma they cite escapism to justify doing nothing.
In Puranas each person has a role and that defines his/her identity. So whats wrong with claiming a Hindu identity?
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written by Raju, 2009-08-25 12:20:02
Dear Pradip,
I agree one should leave it to every Hindu to develop her own methodology to attain workable Hindu identity and one size can not fit all. I think untochability can also be addressed by things that you have listed.
There are some issues that can be solved by having workable Hindu identity at community level.
Background information.
Of the eight fault-lines in human construction between human and nature, between genders, between generations, between nations, between countries, between races, between castes and classes, Gandhi picked up six.
A look at Gandhi/s life and political agenda listed below clearly shows that his views were actions oriented and inclusive.
1.Struggle against racism in South Africa
2.Struggle for independence, swaraj
3.Struggle against the caste system, for the harijans
4.Struggle against economic exploitation, for sarvodya
5.Struggle against communal strife between Hindus and Muslims
6.Struggle against sexism, for liberation of women
7.Struggle for non-violent ways of struggling, satatyagraha
Ref: Gandhi: The Realistic Politician by Johan Galtung
Director, Professor, Peace Studies, Transcend, France
Question
What kind of workable Hindu identity we need at a community level that is acceptable to all Hindus to address issues listed in 4, 5, 6 & 7? There are some issues like interaction between human and nature etc that may need workable Hindu identity in order to claim to be representing Brahman.
I believe this workable identity should translate easily into actions at community level. I think we need some thing more than just high level guiding principles and at the same time there should some coherence between identity at community and individual level. May be we need to get or generate additional details.
I am aware that solution may not be easy as there are multiple forces in play over here i.e. political, social, commercial, leftist, materialistic, cultural etc but workable identity should transcend forces in this world.
Regards,
Raju
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written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2009-08-25 10:06:53
[culture of tamils vs malayalees vs bengalees vs fill in the blanks need not necesrily be diametrically opposite. in practicality there are differences which make a huge impact]
Isn't this irrelevant in America. It is my impression that the author of this article is really talking about Hindu identity in America. Here in a few decades all the different linguistic identities will die because of English.
caste system is nowadays being trivialised by certain quarters of indian intelligentia as being somehow a creation of the british. that is wrong and attempts to forge a new identity for hindus might lead to omissions and commissions such as those]]
How is caste system trivialised? It probably is a fact that the British tried to sharpen the caste divide in order to divide and rule. That would be very natural thing to do.
Moreover caste is not an important issue in America. The first generation Hindus might have a caste identity. The second and third generation would consider caste to be an oddity. In fact caste is only a big problem in India. Indonesian Hindus do not have a caste system.
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written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2009-08-25 08:23:12
You have already pointed out the correct way to create a workable Hindu identity when you wrote:" any workable Hindu identity should be able to achieve peace and harmony not just in India but every where and all the time (all desh and all kal)". That is the way to go. Of course you can ask how a Hindu can attain that? I think one should leave it to every Hindu to develop her own methodology to attain that. I think one size can not fit all.
Regards
Pradip
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written by mogambo, 2009-08-25 03:33:38
is trying to define an ideal from the grately multifaceted culture and religion practical as a exercise?
@narensomu:
culture of tamils vs malayalees vs bengalees vs fill in the blanks need not necesrily be diametrically opposite. in practicality there are differences which make a huge impact
someone mentioned caste system:
caste system is nowadays being trivialised by certain quarters of indian intelligentia as being somehow a creation of the british. that is wrong and attempts to forge a new identity for hindus might lead to omissions and commissions such as those
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written by narensomu, 2009-08-24 20:43:16
As for the caste system, I think most right thinking people agree that it is against the core Indic principles.
But many educated people still believe [ or have been led to believe]that this scourge is part of the religion.
This idea is due to ignorance of one's own roots and nothing else.
This is also a group that views itself objectively and there can be free voices that are raised against such practices. A very big positive point.
The fact that people from other cultures are free to point out the presence of garbage in our yard [ without a single look at their backyard] may make some of us defensive .But if we look at our roots we'd be richer by so many incidents that prove that the ills of caste system [ as it is practiced now] dont belong here.
The real fact is that the Indic society has been a self cleaning one always -That's the reason certain Acharyas came at certain times.
My humble solution is read about their lifes and times-A Shankara who composed Manisha Panchakam or a Shri Ramanujacharya and spread the message far and wide. A nation's laws can only do so much. Beyond that its the spirit of the people that should stop such things.
We should discuss Kannappa Nayanar , Nandanar, Kanakadasa and Thirupanazhwar, the blessed lives of Nayanmars and Alwars [ people of all castes] and also about how some modern thinkers have distorted thes stories to create divisions!
Regards
ns
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written by narensomu, 2009-08-24 20:21:56
I was thinking abt this hyphenated identity concept and thought how well this fits Hindus who come in all colors [ philosophically as well as literally]The word Hindu-American doesnt sound odd and also , a Shaivite-Hindu or a formless God-worshipping Hindu [ as in Jyothi worshippers] are not odd. Its perfectly natural [ and interesting] to be different colored beads but that which are still strung to the same gold thread.
The thread together with the beads makes the colorful necklace.
The beads know at some level that there is a thread that holds them together
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written by narensomu, 2009-08-24 20:04:56
Even with organised faiths there are so many sub groups , and some slight differences in customs but they all have one identity.
I think the small ,minor differences add color to the society.
There are differing customs but there is an underlying thread of unity-the stress of ancinet Indic thinking on learn -work- do your duty-practice-assimilate-research on your own-accept other's viewpoints while still treading your path-strive, strive to reach God while doing your Wordly duties well.
Whole books can be written on how values and beliefs are the same-how the worldview is the same etc.
Please read Dr Pradip's recent article where he talks about American ness-through hyphenated identities-African -American, Indian- American Chinese .
I think people who live in America cant disagree with this point.[ shouldnt rather]
A Vaishnavite -Hindu, Saivite-Hindu, Shaktha -Hindu, no affiliation-but- all worshipping- Hindu, Advaitic -HIndu, Mimamsak-Hindu, is just the same and the concept has been around since long despite idealogical differences.
The Panchayatana Puja concept just reinforces the concept of unity in diversity. The author is arguing so well about this unity.
Regards
ns
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written by Raju, 2009-08-24 18:15:27
Dear Pradip and Partha,
Shri Rajiv Malohtra has written very clearly about core/spiritual identity of Hindus. It is interesting to read Newsweek article ‘We are all Hindus Now’.
Partha, You are correct this life is also real as it is also based on experience though based on view of duality as result of Brahman’s lila and becomes illusion only after experience of non-duality as said by Pradip.
Our ancestors gave us broad framework of the four Ashrams or Life Stages (Brahmacharya, Grahasta, Vanaprastha and Sanyasa) and Purusarthas - the goals of human attainment (Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha) to address both dual and non-dual view of reality. This worked very well in the past but things have changes and in the modern world perhaps we need some thing more this to address chaos and conflict that we see all around us.
Big question for many us is how to translate guiding principles listed by Shri Rajiv in our daily life in this modern world while interacting both with Hindus and non-Hindus. This is the central issue for Hindu’s in India and outside India. Here are two different views of Hindu identity (see below) that are being put into practice.
Gandhi’s Hinduism and Savarkar’s Hindutva
http://www.epw.in/epw/uploads/articles/13731.pdf
Which of the above two view will be address untouchability?
(see below for issue)
After 60 yrs of Independence, untouchability alive and kicking in India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes...50136.cms
Are there any other known workable/practical views of Hindu identity?
I am raising these questions as in ultimate analysis any workable Hindu identity should be able to achieve peace and harmony not just in India but every where and all the time (all desh and all kal) to claim to be originating from SatChitAnada Brahman.
Regards,
Raju
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written by mogambo, 2009-08-24 17:21:46
In some sense, the 'construction' of a Hindu Identity has been argued as 'reactionary', i.e. in reaction to the well constructed identnty fortresses that are Abrahamic religions of Christianity & Islam.
What saves Hindu identity from being reactionary is (a) it is a time attested solid identity over the ages, going by various names 'Vaidik', 'Sanatana Dharma' etc, and...(b) it is not exclusive, as speaker RM so convincingly argues.
In society, except for the super rich / super secure, the rest of us cannot afford to be Identity-less, so the choice is between diluting one's identity so much one gets absorbed into a competing Identity construction (i.e. the Abrahamic converts in India) or...to reinforce one's identity.
The latter seems to be a saner & healthier choice...
Karigar sahab,
mogambo thinks that one needs to be clear about what this "hindu" identity is or should be
is hindu identity that of a religious practice? if so then there are different practices of religion within the family where shiva is worshipped as ultimate god by shaivites and vishnu by vaishnavites, durga by shakti worshippers and ganesha by maharathas
mogambo can better understand a "generic" identity from a cultural angle but even there there are specific and distinct cultures within the family
culture of tamils is different from culture of bengalis from culture of malayalees from culture of punjabis
how can one narrow down on a single identity? or should all these cultures and religious practices be included into the creation of this "hindu" identity?
mogambo thinks that it would be easier to let people choose their own identity
that is where democratic and forward thinking societies should be headed and not towards narrow identity politics
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written by karigar, 2009-08-24 08:58:28
In some sense, the 'construction' of a Hindu Identity has been argued as 'reactionary', i.e. in reaction to the well constructed identnty fortresses that are Abrahamic religions of Christianity & Islam.
What saves Hindu identity from being reactionary is (a) it is a time attested solid identity over the ages, going by various names 'Vaidik', 'Sanatana Dharma' etc, and...(b) it is not exclusive, as speaker RM so convincingly argues.
In society, except for the super rich / super secure, the rest of us cannot afford to be Identity-less, so the choice is between diluting one's identity so much one gets absorbed into a competing Identity construction (i.e. the Abrahamic converts in India) or...to reinforce one's identity.
The latter seems to be a saner & healthier choice...
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written by mogambo, 2009-08-24 07:10:11
is hindu identity narrow or wide?
does it encompass many facets, as an ocean would with many rivers running into it or is it a single river?
there is a risk in trying to define something that is very broad based and dynamic, if you ask mogambo. by narrowing down on a definition the other aspects might get lost in the process.
has not someone said before that hinduism is not a religion but a way of life? well then mogambo says how can we force a "set" way of life on many? each should find their own way of life that suits them best
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written by karigar, 2009-08-23 05:34:13
In the many discussions on Medha J & other forums, we see the persistent (mis)use of Advaitic thought to justify inaction , acquiescence, & capitulation in the 'vyavaharik' sociopolitical realm. Luckily, the foremost moddern interpreter of Advaita, Swami Vivekananda would have none of this, & insisted on action.
It is here that the validity of Samkhya/Yoga, Dvaita etc need to be upheld, before the hindu starts contorting oneself into philosophical knots trying to uphold radically different Abrahamic, Leftist, & other materialistic thought!
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written by P. Desikan, 2009-08-23 04:56:07
Yes indeed, non insistence of the role of Advaita in representing all of Vedanta could be a first step in respect for revelations and 'ideas'. Samkhya is definitely one possibilty, not replacing but supplementing Advaita. In fact this respect for all of the seeking and all honest realizations of paths to the truth along with appreciation of the colours that religious practice adds on to itself would very much constitute being a 'Hindu, as the author of this article takes pains to explain.
Regards. Partha.
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written by advocatus D, 2009-08-22 16:37:29
The answer to defining a Hindu Identity lies in using the Samkhya-Yoga framework and not Advaita.
Advaita truly is something that transcends religion and induces contradiction and confusion in the minds of most people. That is because Advaita speaks about Nonduality and therefore is beyond the realm of subject and object.
A sound Dualistic model as posited by Samkhya, Yoga is very valuable in forging a generic Hindu Identity.
You have raised some serious points that all Hindus need to contemplate about.
AD
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written by P. Desikan, 2009-08-21 21:10:32
Let us call it lila like our illustrious author, or let us not. Let us believe in what exactly our own specific Acharyas teach us or let us not. This whole set which we call Existence can be real, mythical, qualified mythical, qualified real. But my present life from birth to death is a definite, real, subset which I have to live out.I can enjoy doing it. The identity that I have been given as a Hindu gives me automatic respect for all people including myself. My gender, training, profession, place of residence and so on add colour to this identity, none of which I need resent, because I respect all colours. It must be the easiest thing in the world for a Hindu to live out his human life, as a Hindu. It is like a fish placed in water.
Regards. Partha.
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written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2009-08-21 13:31:16
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