My friend Evgeny and I go to learn Yoga from a Tamil Siddha Yogi and also learn Taiji Chuan from a student from an authentic Taoist Lineage. Evgeny is a Bulgarian national and a serious student of Yoga, Darshana and Taoism. We often discuss the state of affairs regarding Yoga, how it is in India and it's evident popularity in the West. As a serious practitioner of Yoga, my friend doesn't have any doubts about the roots of Yoga. In fact he has embarked on a study of the history of Yoga and he clearly comes back with this response "Yoga was born out of the Hindu tradition".
In course of our discussions, he often expresses irritation at the "New-agey" tendency to appropriate Yoga while not giving credit to it's roots. I have heard many Buddhists claim that Yoga was a practice separate from the Hindu religion, and many traditions have used it and integrated it's practice into their version of Spirituality.
In the US we see the tendency to divorce Yoga from it's roots and people patenting Sequences of Asanas, creating new types of Yoga such Viniyoga, Vinyasa, Kundalini Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga...the list is almost as long as the list of rockstar Yoga Gurus here!
I recently also discovered that there is a "Christian Yoga" and how it helps the Christians connect with their "True God". The names of the Asanas were changed and combined with devotional prayers and mindful intents directed towards "their God".
Why is there so much apathy towards accepting that Yoga was born out of Sanatana Dharma (there is problem with that description too, because some Buddhists claim that Buddhism is the "real" Sanatana Dharma)?
When my friend Ravi and I were attending a conference in Chicago in 2008 called the "Human Empowerment Conference", an american Yogi urged us (mainly Indian Hindus at the conference) to reach out to the Yoga community in the West and join hands with them. When asked why this Yoga community was so averse to recognizing the roots of the Yoga practice that has given them so much, the response came back "They are recovering from the onslaught of their birth religion.."
Deepak Chopra's recent encounter with Dr Aseem Shukla over Yoga seems to summarize very succinctly what the New Age thinks about this subject. Also quoted and linked are some other articles on this topic:
An Article in the LA Times reported:
Incorporating prayer and readings from the Bible, Brock urged his class of about 20 students to find strength in their connection to their creator through yoga's deep, controlled breathing. "The goal of Christian yoga is to open ourselves up to God," he said. "It allows us to blur the line between the physical and the spiritual."
The instructor then recited the Lord's Prayer while his students moved slowly through a series of postures known as the sun salutation.
Such hybrid classes, which combine yoga practice with elements of Christianity or Judaism, appear to be growing in popularity across Southern California and elsewhere.
Some Christians call their versions of the discipline holy yoga or Yahweh yoga and some teachers urge participants to "breathe down Jesus." Jewish yogis, in turn, have developed -- and in some cases, even trademarked -- Torah yoga, Kabbalah yoga and aleph bet yoga, applying Eastern meditative movements to Jewish prayer and study.
Meanwhile, Californian Muslims who practice yoga have yet to merge it with the teachings of the Koran or worship of Allah, a local leader says. And there are skeptics within all three Abrahamic religions who question whether it is proper to integrate the Hindu-based spiritual practice into Western monotheistic traditions.
and more
Brock completed a 200-hour accredited course in Phoenix designed by Brooke Boon, author of the book "Holy Yoga." Boon has trained nearly 200 Christian yogis, about a dozen of whom are teaching in Southern California.
"Christ is my guru. Yoga is a spiritual discipline much like prayer, meditation and fasting," Boon said in a telephone interview. "No one religion can claim ownership."
Some fundamentalist Christians distance themselves from yoga, saying it is inseparable from Hinduism or Buddhism and therefore dangerous, even blasphemous. Some Orthodox Jewish authorities warn that if practiced with all its Eastern components, including Sanskrit chanting and small statues of deities, it amounts to avodah zarah, or the worship of false gods.
For many religious Jews, Christians and Muslims, viewing yoga as a physical rather than spiritual practice solves the dilemma.
But Rabbi Avivah Winocur Erlick, a chaplain at Providence Tarzana Medical Center, says it is impossible to separate yoga from her Jewish spiritualism. About six years ago, Erlick began having intense spiritual experiences while doing yoga. She sought advice from a rabbi.
"He said, 'God has been trying to reach you all these years and he is reaching you through yoga," Erlick recalled. The rabbi challenged her to reconcile yoga with Judaism, which led to five years of study to become a rabbi. "For me, yoga is prayer," Erlick said.
Dr Aseem Shukla of the Hindu American Foundation wrote in this Washington Post article titled the "Theft of Yoga":
Why is yoga severed in America's collective consciousness from Hinduism? Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu origins. It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy in which they can take pride.
Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of crass commercialism. TheMaharishi Mahesh Yogi, under whose tutelage the Beatles steadied their mind and made sense of their insane fame, packaged the wonders of meditation asTranscendental Meditation (TM) just as an entrepreneur from here in Minneapolis applied the principles of Ayurveda to drive a commercial enterprise he coined as Aveda. TM and Aveda are trademarked brands--a protection not available to the originator of their brand--Hinduism itself. And certainly these masters benefited millions with their contributions, but in agreeing to ditch Hinduism as the source, they left these gifts orphaned and unanchored.
To which Deepak Chopra's rejoinder titled "Sorry your patent on Yoga has Run out" was prompt and strong:
In his recent article for On Faith, Aseem Shukla lamentsthe disconnect between yoga and its origins in Hinduism. He's certainly right that the practice of Yoga has become a "spiritual discipline" that is open to anyone of any faith. But it's strange to find him disapproving of this fact, for several reasons.
First, yoga is a spiritual discipline in India, and always has been. The aim of the practice is liberation. When liberation occurs, the yogi is freed from the religious trappings that enclose Yoga. Those trappings have always been incidental to the deeper aim of enlightenment.
Secondly, yoga did not originate in Hinduism as Prof. Shukla claims. Perhaps he has a fundamentalist agenda in mind, but he must know very well that the rise of Hinduism as a religion came centuries after the foundation of yoga in consciousness and consciousness alone. Religious rites and the worship of gods has always been seen as being in service to a higher cause, knowing the self.
It is interesting to learn that Dr Chopra does not think that Yoga has it's roots in Hinduism, even though Yoga as practiced -- based on the revival of it by Sri Krishnamacharya and his two stalwart disciples the Late Sri Pattabhi Jois and Sr BKS Iyengar and Maharshi Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. I don't know about you, but I always knew that Yoga was the practical aspect of Samkhya, one of the six primary schools of Hindu Orthodox Philosophy. It has also been greatly influenced by Vedanta and one can find nearly one-for-one overlaps between the states described as Samadhi (or end-goal of Yoga) in Upanishadic literature.
I will hold my opinion on this matter in this piece. I would instead ask you Medhavis to tell me what you think...
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written by partha, 2010-05-31 16:51:48
Writing creates the illusion of beginning, of the end, and of the fixity of life,
ALL THIS RUNS CONTRARY TO RTA. Where is the beginning, middle, or end of the Eternal Wheel?
Every student of sanatana dharma must agree.
Also with
We are ONE species, the best we can do is prove that we are looking for the same thing those early humans were looking for, and in some cases they found the answer earlier than we did, but in every case the search has been made easier for each one of us, thanks to their company.
All of us must shed our indirect approval of the preoccupation of modern scholars in looking for evidence of chronology of ideas rather than the soundness of ideas.
Truth is always there. Some one could have seen it long ago. Another a thousand years hence.
Regards. Partha
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written by nitinbhai, 2010-05-31 12:38:14
I have been trying to find a deeper level of critical interaction between Indic Traditions and the West, something more effective and deeper than simple attacks of rhetoric, or something less terminal than “ We Hindus are the original ground of Western knowledge,” a common attitude in the latest exchanges at Indic Traditions. A few nights ago I found inspiration in a section of the news at CNN, called Global Minute where it was shown the “Hindu idolatry” and the “Hindu Idol” in the celebration of Lord Ganesha’s immersion in the waters of the Ocean off Bombay.
My first reaction was anger at their ignorance. This anger, vanished by the morning after remembering my dream that night. This is the gist.
Lord Ganesha, for those of you who know your Mahabharata, is not only the god/symbol/manifestation of sperm , the bountiful god of procreation,(hence his immersion in the waters of the sea), but he is also the inventor of writing and thus the god of all those artifacts created through writing (read the Mahabharata again), and he is also the god of the interference of writing with the “texts” of the oral traditions of India. It is also clear that by keeping Ganesha and what he represents at the level of myth it serves as a reminder and distance of the good and the bad in human creations, their origins, and their neuro-cultural presence. CNN, on the other hand, by treating Ganesha as a religious idolatry did not only erase oral cultures from memory but more concretely it made obvious the fact that the idolatry was in CNN and the West pointing fingers to an idolatry they carried inside of them, the West, not in Hinduism.
It is in the West, for it is in the West that sperm dictates legitimacy, from the birth of the Son of God out of a Virgin, to the birth of children in the streets,to the birth of religious legitimacy out of a book or a written paper, or law. And it is this same “god of writing” that hides in the life and soul of every Western action. From birth certificates, through marriage, degrees, and the usurpation of oral experience into the translated presumed sacrality of written texts. In other words, turn the tables on the accusers and show them how the idolatry they claim to be in the idols is not there but rather in those pointing fingers at the idols, nor is it in those who remind us of the mythical origins of our Western idolatries.
AS for the claim that the Indic Traditions are the origin of all that is Western knowledge, be also smart. We are ONE species, the best we can do is prove that we are looking for the same thing those early humans were looking for, and in some cases they found the answer earlier than we did, but in every case the search has been made easier for each one of us, thanks to their company.
Writing creates the illusion of beginning, of the end, and of the fixity of life,
ALL THIS RUNS CONTRARY TO RTA. Where is the beginning, middle, or end of the Eternal Wheel?
OM, Shanti,
Antonio de Nicolas
My first reaction was anger at their ignorance. This anger, vanished by the morning after remembering my dream that night. This is the gist.
Lord Ganesha, for those of you who know your Mahabharata, is not only the god/symbol/manifestation of sperm , the bountiful god of procreation,(hence his immersion in the waters of the sea), but he is also the inventor of writing and thus the god of all those artifacts created through writing (read the Mahabharata again), and he is also the god of the interference of writing with the “texts” of the oral traditions of India. It is also clear that by keeping Ganesha and what he represents at the level of myth it serves as a reminder and distance of the good and the bad in human creations, their origins, and their neuro-cultural presence. CNN, on the other hand, by treating Ganesha as a religious idolatry did not only erase oral cultures from memory but more concretely it made obvious the fact that the idolatry was in CNN and the West pointing fingers to an idolatry they carried inside of them, the West, not in Hinduism.
It is in the West, for it is in the West that sperm dictates legitimacy, from the birth of the Son of God out of a Virgin, to the birth of children in the streets,to the birth of religious legitimacy out of a book or a written paper, or law. And it is this same “god of writing” that hides in the life and soul of every Western action. From birth certificates, through marriage, degrees, and the usurpation of oral experience into the translated presumed sacrality of written texts. In other words, turn the tables on the accusers and show them how the idolatry they claim to be in the idols is not there but rather in those pointing fingers at the idols, nor is it in those who remind us of the mythical origins of our Western idolatries.
AS for the claim that the Indic Traditions are the origin of all that is Western knowledge, be also smart. We are ONE species, the best we can do is prove that we are looking for the same thing those early humans were looking for, and in some cases they found the answer earlier than we did, but in every case the search has been made easier for each one of us, thanks to their company.
Writing creates the illusion of beginning, of the end, and of the fixity of life,
ALL THIS RUNS CONTRARY TO RTA. Where is the beginning, middle, or end of the Eternal Wheel?
OM, Shanti,
Antonio de Nicolas
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written by partha, 2010-05-29 17:17:21
Thank you, dear Raju for drawing attention to a Hinduphilic article, which goes along with Aseem Shukla in asking western practitioners of yoga to acknowledge its Hindu roots without reserve.
As Dwai points out, its author does not go further and say,
We must hope that his requirement is met, first from among more NRIs, namely more Aseem Shuklas, and then also among western Hinduphiles. It cannot be expected to happen in the reverse order.
As we all know, most NRI Hindus too pay only (if at all) lip service to Hindu rituals and 'colourful' religious practices. Those among them who care for sanatana dharma, stop at Vedantic studies and yoga and do not find time for Hindu festivals and religio-cultural activities.
What additionally can one expect, unless extra efforts are taken to rally behind the Shuklas with unqualified support? Unless more time is consciously devoted to hold on to one's religio-cultural practices from back home, without creating ill will in one's environment? it should always be possible to go to temples or other meeting places too for the purpose. It does not matter if one is not advertising such practice. It will show. It does not matter if several Hindu groups are seen to engage in several different cultural practices. It adds colour to the occasional western scrutiny.
As Dwai points out, its author does not go further and say,
There is a lot of misconception about Hinduism in the West, perpetrated by continuation of vested interests, but that is not correct. And I for one have decided to break the cycle and lead the way in redeeming Hinduism in the Western psyche.
We must hope that his requirement is met, first from among more NRIs, namely more Aseem Shuklas, and then also among western Hinduphiles. It cannot be expected to happen in the reverse order.
As we all know, most NRI Hindus too pay only (if at all) lip service to Hindu rituals and 'colourful' religious practices. Those among them who care for sanatana dharma, stop at Vedantic studies and yoga and do not find time for Hindu festivals and religio-cultural activities.
What additionally can one expect, unless extra efforts are taken to rally behind the Shuklas with unqualified support? Unless more time is consciously devoted to hold on to one's religio-cultural practices from back home, without creating ill will in one's environment? it should always be possible to go to temples or other meeting places too for the purpose. It does not matter if one is not advertising such practice. It will show. It does not matter if several Hindu groups are seen to engage in several different cultural practices. It adds colour to the occasional western scrutiny.
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written by rudra, 2010-05-29 09:49:37
I look forward to the day when people like me can use the term Hinduism without fear of being misconstrued. In the meantime, it is incumbent upon yoga proponents to give credit where it is due, not just because India deserves it after centuries of exploitation, but to keep the spiritual and philosophical foundation of yoga in the foreground. If those deeper elements are lost and yoga comes to be seen as just another fitness exercise, we will fail to take full advantage of its gifts. Most veteran yoga teachers recognize this, which puts them on the same page as the Hindu advocacy groups -- except for that pesky issue of nomenclature. I would urge them all to not let arguments over terminology overshadow what really matters: the depth and authenticity of the teachings. Putting substance over form would be in keeping with the most fundamental premise of Hinduism and the Vedic tradition that predates that term by centuries: "Truth is one, the wise call it by many names."
I have a problem with this article, and call me a judgmental fool, but I think I'm onto something here:
1) The premise seems to be that -- While Vedanta and Yoga are great, mainstream Hindu practices are somehow comical and/or far from desirable. It seems like the author inadvertently lets us in on a window in the state of "Hinduism" in the Western minds...a primitive and feeble attempt to enact the grand spirituality of Vedanta and Yoga via colorful and exotic ceremonial activities
2) The author, obviously a Hindu-phile still considers it impractical, or worse still, stigmatic to associate himself or his Yoga with Hinduism, due to the connotations reflected upon in the previous point.
What would have been a convincing argument for me would have been -- "There is a lot of misconception about Hinduism in the West, perpetrated by continuation of vested interests, but that is not correct. And I for one have decided to break the cycle and lead the way in redeeming Hinduism in the Western psyche"
WIthout that, the article, though good intentioned is weak and lip-service only.
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written by rmraju, 2010-05-29 09:08:48
Hi All,
Here is an interesting article that I came across.
Yoga: Reaffirming the Transformational Practice's Hindu Roots
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...view=print
Thanks,
Raju
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written by partha, 2010-05-23 17:16:45
Am entering the discussion rather late, thanks to not understanding a technical problem.
Thank you Dwai for taking up this burning issue.
It is an issue for the NRIs in America in particular, who must show visible, tangible support to Shri Aseem Shukla and create a big wave in his support. American Hindus cannot expect the Chopras to behave any differently. No point in talking to them. The Hindus must create enough awareness among the yoga users directly, by reaching every yoga instruction facility with literature that will enable it to make proper acknowledgement to Yoga's root, never mind the secularists. Organization in a unified way is all that is necessary. All people believing in the need to correct the situation, resident in the USA, should rally behind one committed person or organization, for example Shri Shukla and his HAF.
Regards. Partha
Thank you Dwai for taking up this burning issue.
It is an issue for the NRIs in America in particular, who must show visible, tangible support to Shri Aseem Shukla and create a big wave in his support. American Hindus cannot expect the Chopras to behave any differently. No point in talking to them. The Hindus must create enough awareness among the yoga users directly, by reaching every yoga instruction facility with literature that will enable it to make proper acknowledgement to Yoga's root, never mind the secularists. Organization in a unified way is all that is necessary. All people believing in the need to correct the situation, resident in the USA, should rally behind one committed person or organization, for example Shri Shukla and his HAF.
Regards. Partha
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written by karigar, 2010-05-22 12:29:28
Another good one here: http://boloji.com/spirituality/130.htm
From which:
From which:
Modern day scholars from India frequently present the attitude of "let them have yoga, I am interested in protecting Hinduism." I have heard this sentiment on numerous occasions, but the reality is that yoga is a part of Hinduism. Allowing one part to be taken from Hinduism opens a door for the distortion of the teachings. We must remember that the roots to modern day yoga comes from Vedic Yoga. The same Vedic Yoga that is the authority of Hinduism. Allowing one branch to be severed from the tree of knowledge will not necessarily kill that tree, but it can produce strain and have an unbalancing effect upon the tree.
Hinduism should reclaim its full heritage and not allow other groups to rename its sacred teachings under their banner, especially when they have no history of those teaching within their own system. If they wish to 'borrow' and say this comes from our brothers and sisters in Hinduism, then that is another thing. But frequently groups attempt to privatize the information and present themselves as the original authority. Hinduism should guard against its sacred traditions becoming distorted and taken away.
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written by karigar, 2010-05-22 09:55:26
From Lisa Miller of Newsweek..
Methinks she & Prof Prothero land on the side of acknowledgement of roots, though giving a passing wave to the worldly Chopras of the world..
http://www.newsweek.com/id/237910
The Clash of the Yogis
Do the Hindu roots of yoga matter?
Lisa Miller
Published May 13, 2010
From the magazine issue dated May 31, 2010
I don't care much for bland spirituality, so at yoga class I generally tune out the prelude, when the teacher reads aloud—as is the custom—an inspirational passage on which to meditate. Recently, though, I was startled to attention when the teacher chose a paragraph on compassion from the Dalai Lama's bestseller The Art of Happiness. Hold on a minute, I thought. Isn't the Dalai Lama a Tibetan Buddhist? And isn't yoga a Hindu practice? And haven't Buddhists and Hindus been at war over land and gods for thousands of years? The Dalai Lama may be regarded throughout the world as a holy man, but downward dog is not his expertise.
Sixteen million Americans practice yoga, according to Yoga Journal, and in 2008 we spent nearly $6 billion on classes and stretch pants. Yet aside from "om" and the occasional "namaste," Americans rarely acknowledge that yoga is, at its foundation, an ancient Hindu religious practice, the goal of which is to achieve spiritual liberation by joining one's soul to the essence of the divine. In its American version, yoga is a mishmash: Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, 12-step rhetoric, self-help philosophies, cleansing diets, exercise, physical therapy, and massage. Its Hindu roots are obliterated by the modern infatuation with all things Eastern—and by our growing predilection for spiritual practices stripped of the sectarian burdens of religion. Americans' naive but characteristic conflation of Eastern religions isn't new; in 1845 Ralph Waldo Emerson called the Bhagavad-Gita (which is Hindu scripture) "the much renowned book of Buddhism."
Lately, though, that muddle is less innocent. Some of yoga's best-known—and most entrepreneurial—purveyors concede they've consciously separated Hinduism from yoga to make it more palatable. "The reason I sanitized it is there's a lot of junk in [Hinduism]," explains Deepak Chopra, the New Age guru whose latest book, co-written with Marianne Williamson and Debbie Ford, is The Shadow Effect. "We've got to evolve to a secular spirituality that still addresses our deepest longings … Most religion is culture and mythology. Read any religious text, and there's a lot of nonsense there. Yet the religious experience is beautiful."
Generically spiritual yoga may be fine for most Americans—preferable, even, for those who desire the benefits of meditative exercise without any apparent conflict with their own religious beliefs. But for some American Hindus, it amounts to a kind of ethnic cleansing. In The Washington Post's On Faith blog (to which I contribute), the pediatric urologist Aseem Shukla last month tangled with Chopra over the whitewashing of yoga. Shukla, who is also the head of the Hindu American Foundation, believes that if he doesn't help his American-born children feel good about their religion, no one will. And so he says, loudly and often and to anyone who will listen: "Yoga originated in Hinduism. It's disingenuous to say otherwise. A little bit of credit wouldn't be a bad thing, and it would help Hindu Americans feel proud of their heritage."
In all religions, heartbreak and enmity lie in this struggle between those who want to unify and transcend, like Chopra, and those who want to protect their tradition's unique identity and character, like Shukla. My friend the Boston University religion professor Stephen Prothero has just written a book called God Is Not One, which argues that the good in any religion (e.g., yoga) necessarily comes with the bad (caste systems). By seeing religion as a single, happy universal force, we blind ourselves to tensions of great consequence to individuals and to history. "America," he says, "has this amazing capacity to make everything banal. That's what we do. We make things banal and then we sell them. If you're a Hindu, you see this beautiful, ancient tradition of yoga being turned into this ugly materialistic vehicle for selling clothes. It makes sense to me that you would be upset."
But, Prothero points out, Chopra has a point. The American creative, materialistic, pluralistic impulse allows religion here to grow and change, taking on new and unimagined shapes. "You can't stop people from appropriating elements in your religion," Prothero adds. "You can't stop people from using and transforming yoga. But you have to honor and credit the source." Prothero's bottom line is also my own. You can read from the Dalai Lama in yoga class. You can even read from the Sermon on the Mount. But know where yoga came from and respect those origins. Then, when you chant "om," it will resonate not only in the room but down through the ages.
Lisa Miller is NEWSWEEK's religion editor and the author of Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination With the Afterlife. Become a fan of Lisa on Facebook.
© 2010
Methinks she & Prof Prothero land on the side of acknowledgement of roots, though giving a passing wave to the worldly Chopras of the world..
http://www.newsweek.com/id/237910
The Clash of the Yogis
Do the Hindu roots of yoga matter?
Lisa Miller
Published May 13, 2010
From the magazine issue dated May 31, 2010
I don't care much for bland spirituality, so at yoga class I generally tune out the prelude, when the teacher reads aloud—as is the custom—an inspirational passage on which to meditate. Recently, though, I was startled to attention when the teacher chose a paragraph on compassion from the Dalai Lama's bestseller The Art of Happiness. Hold on a minute, I thought. Isn't the Dalai Lama a Tibetan Buddhist? And isn't yoga a Hindu practice? And haven't Buddhists and Hindus been at war over land and gods for thousands of years? The Dalai Lama may be regarded throughout the world as a holy man, but downward dog is not his expertise.
Sixteen million Americans practice yoga, according to Yoga Journal, and in 2008 we spent nearly $6 billion on classes and stretch pants. Yet aside from "om" and the occasional "namaste," Americans rarely acknowledge that yoga is, at its foundation, an ancient Hindu religious practice, the goal of which is to achieve spiritual liberation by joining one's soul to the essence of the divine. In its American version, yoga is a mishmash: Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, 12-step rhetoric, self-help philosophies, cleansing diets, exercise, physical therapy, and massage. Its Hindu roots are obliterated by the modern infatuation with all things Eastern—and by our growing predilection for spiritual practices stripped of the sectarian burdens of religion. Americans' naive but characteristic conflation of Eastern religions isn't new; in 1845 Ralph Waldo Emerson called the Bhagavad-Gita (which is Hindu scripture) "the much renowned book of Buddhism."
Lately, though, that muddle is less innocent. Some of yoga's best-known—and most entrepreneurial—purveyors concede they've consciously separated Hinduism from yoga to make it more palatable. "The reason I sanitized it is there's a lot of junk in [Hinduism]," explains Deepak Chopra, the New Age guru whose latest book, co-written with Marianne Williamson and Debbie Ford, is The Shadow Effect. "We've got to evolve to a secular spirituality that still addresses our deepest longings … Most religion is culture and mythology. Read any religious text, and there's a lot of nonsense there. Yet the religious experience is beautiful."
Generically spiritual yoga may be fine for most Americans—preferable, even, for those who desire the benefits of meditative exercise without any apparent conflict with their own religious beliefs. But for some American Hindus, it amounts to a kind of ethnic cleansing. In The Washington Post's On Faith blog (to which I contribute), the pediatric urologist Aseem Shukla last month tangled with Chopra over the whitewashing of yoga. Shukla, who is also the head of the Hindu American Foundation, believes that if he doesn't help his American-born children feel good about their religion, no one will. And so he says, loudly and often and to anyone who will listen: "Yoga originated in Hinduism. It's disingenuous to say otherwise. A little bit of credit wouldn't be a bad thing, and it would help Hindu Americans feel proud of their heritage."
In all religions, heartbreak and enmity lie in this struggle between those who want to unify and transcend, like Chopra, and those who want to protect their tradition's unique identity and character, like Shukla. My friend the Boston University religion professor Stephen Prothero has just written a book called God Is Not One, which argues that the good in any religion (e.g., yoga) necessarily comes with the bad (caste systems). By seeing religion as a single, happy universal force, we blind ourselves to tensions of great consequence to individuals and to history. "America," he says, "has this amazing capacity to make everything banal. That's what we do. We make things banal and then we sell them. If you're a Hindu, you see this beautiful, ancient tradition of yoga being turned into this ugly materialistic vehicle for selling clothes. It makes sense to me that you would be upset."
But, Prothero points out, Chopra has a point. The American creative, materialistic, pluralistic impulse allows religion here to grow and change, taking on new and unimagined shapes. "You can't stop people from appropriating elements in your religion," Prothero adds. "You can't stop people from using and transforming yoga. But you have to honor and credit the source." Prothero's bottom line is also my own. You can read from the Dalai Lama in yoga class. You can even read from the Sermon on the Mount. But know where yoga came from and respect those origins. Then, when you chant "om," it will resonate not only in the room but down through the ages.
Lisa Miller is NEWSWEEK's religion editor and the author of Heaven: Our Enduring Fascination With the Afterlife. Become a fan of Lisa on Facebook.
© 2010
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written by narensomu, 2010-05-21 23:02:07
Dear Dwai and other Medhavis
A much needed article and the discussions are good too.
Yes, we need not yell from the rooftops about the origins of this great tradition called Yoga but it shouldn’t hurt anyone to acknowledge its true source.
The BG gives a lot of practical suggestions about Yoga –ancient Tamil poet Avvaiyar talks about the Turiya experience in her Vinayakar Agaval. People can post date all they want but there are too many evidences to show that Yoga has been a part and parcel of Sanatana Dharma –[ though SD may be called by another name now ].
About this issue with Vedas not being Hindu, I came across a commenter in a Tamil site who said as Saiva siddanthis they don’t accept the Vedas-if so, they can’t accept a Manickavasakar or an Appar who extol Lord Siva as Vediya /Vedagita and many more every chance they got. Funny indeed.
Some meditation schools teach aspirants to consciously remove samskaras -to avoid a carry-over-IMO, this implies an acceptance of Karma and rebirth concepts. So a lack of acceptance of these concepts means the aspirant is deluding himself/herself.
It takes talent to delude hundreds and build huge empires-to delude oneself is an altruistic artform, IMHO.
Warm regards
ns
A much needed article and the discussions are good too.
Yes, we need not yell from the rooftops about the origins of this great tradition called Yoga but it shouldn’t hurt anyone to acknowledge its true source.
The BG gives a lot of practical suggestions about Yoga –ancient Tamil poet Avvaiyar talks about the Turiya experience in her Vinayakar Agaval. People can post date all they want but there are too many evidences to show that Yoga has been a part and parcel of Sanatana Dharma –[ though SD may be called by another name now ].
About this issue with Vedas not being Hindu, I came across a commenter in a Tamil site who said as Saiva siddanthis they don’t accept the Vedas-if so, they can’t accept a Manickavasakar or an Appar who extol Lord Siva as Vediya /Vedagita and many more every chance they got. Funny indeed.
Some meditation schools teach aspirants to consciously remove samskaras -to avoid a carry-over-IMO, this implies an acceptance of Karma and rebirth concepts. So a lack of acceptance of these concepts means the aspirant is deluding himself/herself.
It takes talent to delude hundreds and build huge empires-to delude oneself is an altruistic artform, IMHO.
Warm regards
ns
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written by advocatus, 2010-05-21 17:13:10
i give you this:
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/yogachristian.htm
it is a very eloquent summarization of what many Yogis have said...Yoga is above religion
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/yogachristian.htm
it is a very eloquent summarization of what many Yogis have said...Yoga is above religion
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written by dlahiri, 2010-05-21 09:48:19
It is said, that the US government has issued 150 yoga-related copyrights, 134 patents on yoga accessories and 2,315 yoga trademarks.
Many of them to people who probably do not hide the origin of Yoga. And some going even to the opposite extreme - becoming more Desi that you guys :-)
Just open any Yoga/New Age magazine and you will see Western women with turbans, Western guys praising Krishna in kirtans and all of them sporting Indian names, clothes, beard and hair styles... I believe for pretty much the same reason - make it look more real => get more people => get more $.
So it can be diluted both ways - by people who never acknowledge what is due and by others, who copy like parrots.
Ev,
Great point brother! While I might concede that some of these turban wearing "Yoginis" might be genuine, I get the feeling that they are infact rather superfluous...just a gut reaction (I haven't interacted with them at all). And just because people parrot the Indian Gurus doesn't mean they acknowledge the roots...they are probably interested in the "image", which is important to make the sale, as you rightly pointed out. I do hope some more of our non-Indian Yoga practitioners stop by and post their thoughts on this matter...
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-21 08:21:34
Very good points, Chitra, Mita and Karigar!
Absolutely agree - Yoga should not be seen, followed and experienced without its roots.
Can the current trend (of not agreeing with that) be stopped?
It is said, that the US government has issued 150 yoga-related copyrights, 134 patents on yoga accessories and 2,315 yoga trademarks.
Many of them to people who probably do not hide the origin of Yoga. And some going even to the opposite extreme - becoming more Desi that you guys :-)
Just open any Yoga/New Age magazine and you will see Western women with turbans, Western guys praising Krishna in kirtans and all of them sporting Indian names, clothes, beard and hair styles... I believe for pretty much the same reason - make it look more real => get more people => get more $.
So it can be diluted both ways - by people who never acknowledge what is due and by others, who copy like parrots.
And back to the question above - I don't think this can be stopped.
We live in times, where many of the thousands years old traditions will go through such metamorphosis that the purest and most precious truths they teach will be lost.
People love to create things anew and forget the old.
A revolution, not evolution.
How much does the Christianity and Islam acknowledge they are sects of Judaism? Or Buddhism - its Hindu origin?
There was a reason why the esoteric teachings were not mainstream and passed only to trusted few.
That is gone already.
You can download for example the whole system of books which Mantak Chia, wrote on esoteric Taoist practices.
But I don't know if I can trust it, as he himself claims to be a devote Christian...
And as for Yoga - I've never been to India, but it seems universally accepted, that it is becoming extremely material, extroversive and West-like.
If the people who accumulated the treasures can not appreciate and preserve them - who could?
evgeny
Absolutely agree - Yoga should not be seen, followed and experienced without its roots.
Can the current trend (of not agreeing with that) be stopped?
It is said, that the US government has issued 150 yoga-related copyrights, 134 patents on yoga accessories and 2,315 yoga trademarks.
Many of them to people who probably do not hide the origin of Yoga. And some going even to the opposite extreme - becoming more Desi that you guys :-)
Just open any Yoga/New Age magazine and you will see Western women with turbans, Western guys praising Krishna in kirtans and all of them sporting Indian names, clothes, beard and hair styles... I believe for pretty much the same reason - make it look more real => get more people => get more $.
So it can be diluted both ways - by people who never acknowledge what is due and by others, who copy like parrots.
And back to the question above - I don't think this can be stopped.
We live in times, where many of the thousands years old traditions will go through such metamorphosis that the purest and most precious truths they teach will be lost.
People love to create things anew and forget the old.
A revolution, not evolution.
How much does the Christianity and Islam acknowledge they are sects of Judaism? Or Buddhism - its Hindu origin?
There was a reason why the esoteric teachings were not mainstream and passed only to trusted few.
That is gone already.
You can download for example the whole system of books which Mantak Chia, wrote on esoteric Taoist practices.
But I don't know if I can trust it, as he himself claims to be a devote Christian...
And as for Yoga - I've never been to India, but it seems universally accepted, that it is becoming extremely material, extroversive and West-like.
If the people who accumulated the treasures can not appreciate and preserve them - who could?
evgeny
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written by Chitra, 2010-05-21 02:40:56
Thank you Rudra, for keeping this topic alive.
Interesting isn’t it, how everything in the west gets turned into a commodity – so that it can be mined for every last dollar that it can yield. Is anyone here aware of the newest gadget on the market that claims to cure hypertension without pills? It is called Resperate, and it retails for a cool $495. And all it is, is basic PrAnAyama! You’re paying several hundred dollars for a machine that beeps at you in order to get you to breathe more deeply and slowly!
How dumb do they think people are? Answer: Very.
The whole appropriation racket is happening because of
1) FEAR. It is the most powerful determinant of human behavior. Kids are afraid of monsters under the bed that will come out at night when the lights are out and terrorize you. You can get them to bend down and shine the torch under the bed and show them there’s nothing. But just to be on the safe side, they will take a flying leap onto the bed so The Thing doesn’t grab them by the ankles and pull them into the UnderBedWorld.
Adults are afraid of what awaits them on the other side when their life light goes out. Reason tells them that there is no Hell, but how can they be sure? And what if they offend the Power on the other side? What if He – it must be a He -- even better, a White Supremacist with Absolute Power – condemns you to eternal torture for Denying Him? So, borrow from the other religion, but be sure to incorporate the rites of appeasement to The Real God.
2) GREED. People who peddle Yoga under cover of a new Fancy Dress – are primarily out to benefit themselves financially by expanding Yoga’s benefits to the widest possible clientele. The same goes for people who strongly protest against any form of Yoga as a pagan practice. Any fall in the number of churchgoers for any reason would hurt contributions to their Church.
Deepak Chopra just happens to be one of the most intelligent and adroit operators in the art of plundering from metaphysics with both feet planted squarely in materialism. He cannot acknowledge Yoga’s roots and risk turning off The Fearful – besides, to do so would undermine the marketing of his uniqueness. Even Dr. Wayne Dyer acknowledges his sources more honestly than Chopra does. Besides, Chopra’s ballooning hubris appears to indicate an alarming imperviousness to the very values he repackages for a very handsome living. I mean, how can you take a person seriously when they claim their meditation caused an earthquake? Dr. Chopra claimed a recent tremblor in Los Angeles was caused by the power of his meditation. That my friends, is some SERIOUS meta-flatulence.
Ultimately, Yoga “belongs” to no one any more than Physics "belongs" to physicists. Yet, to dismiss as “fundamentalist” those Hindus who claim Yoga’s origins as their own is to further fundamental ignorance. Yoga cannot be separated from Hinduism. The trouble is that most westerners have, for too long, essentialized Hinduism along the lines of prejudices and half-truths fed to them by opportunistic self-designated “experts.” Anything outside that narrow bandwidth is promptly labeled “Not-Hinduism.”
Interesting isn’t it, how everything in the west gets turned into a commodity – so that it can be mined for every last dollar that it can yield. Is anyone here aware of the newest gadget on the market that claims to cure hypertension without pills? It is called Resperate, and it retails for a cool $495. And all it is, is basic PrAnAyama! You’re paying several hundred dollars for a machine that beeps at you in order to get you to breathe more deeply and slowly!
How dumb do they think people are? Answer: Very.
The whole appropriation racket is happening because of
1) FEAR. It is the most powerful determinant of human behavior. Kids are afraid of monsters under the bed that will come out at night when the lights are out and terrorize you. You can get them to bend down and shine the torch under the bed and show them there’s nothing. But just to be on the safe side, they will take a flying leap onto the bed so The Thing doesn’t grab them by the ankles and pull them into the UnderBedWorld.
Adults are afraid of what awaits them on the other side when their life light goes out. Reason tells them that there is no Hell, but how can they be sure? And what if they offend the Power on the other side? What if He – it must be a He -- even better, a White Supremacist with Absolute Power – condemns you to eternal torture for Denying Him? So, borrow from the other religion, but be sure to incorporate the rites of appeasement to The Real God.
2) GREED. People who peddle Yoga under cover of a new Fancy Dress – are primarily out to benefit themselves financially by expanding Yoga’s benefits to the widest possible clientele. The same goes for people who strongly protest against any form of Yoga as a pagan practice. Any fall in the number of churchgoers for any reason would hurt contributions to their Church.
Deepak Chopra just happens to be one of the most intelligent and adroit operators in the art of plundering from metaphysics with both feet planted squarely in materialism. He cannot acknowledge Yoga’s roots and risk turning off The Fearful – besides, to do so would undermine the marketing of his uniqueness. Even Dr. Wayne Dyer acknowledges his sources more honestly than Chopra does. Besides, Chopra’s ballooning hubris appears to indicate an alarming imperviousness to the very values he repackages for a very handsome living. I mean, how can you take a person seriously when they claim their meditation caused an earthquake? Dr. Chopra claimed a recent tremblor in Los Angeles was caused by the power of his meditation. That my friends, is some SERIOUS meta-flatulence.
Ultimately, Yoga “belongs” to no one any more than Physics "belongs" to physicists. Yet, to dismiss as “fundamentalist” those Hindus who claim Yoga’s origins as their own is to further fundamental ignorance. Yoga cannot be separated from Hinduism. The trouble is that most westerners have, for too long, essentialized Hinduism along the lines of prejudices and half-truths fed to them by opportunistic self-designated “experts.” Anything outside that narrow bandwidth is promptly labeled “Not-Hinduism.”
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written by mitadas, 2010-05-20 16:15:43
Dwai,
Nice article. Yoga is a $30 billion/yr business in America alone. In this land of opportunity the "gurus" from our very own homeland have peddled this as a health and fitness routine to make it more accepting to the masses and thus severing yoga from it's Hindu roots. But can you blame the World for embracing yoga in a form that provides succor to the body and mind in this age of stress? Except for countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, it is accepted in most Muslim countries as well. I see quite a few women in headscarves in my yoga class and they are very thankful for this gentle form of indoor exercise that is accessible to them.
Frankly, I'm quite distressed when I see the ignorance of most yoga practitioners. But out here we live in an age of religious pluralism where it doesn't require knowing about any other culture or religion. Efforts to separate Yoga from it's spiritual roots just exhibits ignorance of the goal of Yoga. I hope it's not too late to reclaim Yoga back to Hinduism.
Mita.
Nice article. Yoga is a $30 billion/yr business in America alone. In this land of opportunity the "gurus" from our very own homeland have peddled this as a health and fitness routine to make it more accepting to the masses and thus severing yoga from it's Hindu roots. But can you blame the World for embracing yoga in a form that provides succor to the body and mind in this age of stress? Except for countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, it is accepted in most Muslim countries as well. I see quite a few women in headscarves in my yoga class and they are very thankful for this gentle form of indoor exercise that is accessible to them.
Frankly, I'm quite distressed when I see the ignorance of most yoga practitioners. But out here we live in an age of religious pluralism where it doesn't require knowing about any other culture or religion. Efforts to separate Yoga from it's spiritual roots just exhibits ignorance of the goal of Yoga. I hope it's not too late to reclaim Yoga back to Hinduism.
Mita.
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written by dlahiri, 2010-05-20 14:05:43
So we are back to the idea of your post, that Yoga is Indian in its roots and spirit.
Which I already wholeheartedly agreed with.
But we both managed to fail the advice of the rishis to not waste our time with empty talk :-)
Talking about wasting time with empty stuff - not everyone has Facebook account.
Ev,
It might seem like a waste of time or a hollow strawman, but it is not. India has suffered through the ages from this phenomenon of appropriation. We should not support this, not from an "IP" protection perspective, but from the same standpoint as when we protest when american scientists try to patent tulsi, turmeric, neem, etc.
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written by karigar, 2010-05-20 13:07:25
Nobody would be bothered, and this issue wouldn't have legs, if the Abrahamic institutions (who define the word 'religion') were not territorial & dogmatic, which they are.
Since they refuse to leave well alone & are slowly attempting to swallow up Yoga into their own apparatus, Hindus have to protest, and make sure the world knows that yogic fundamentals are incompatible with dogmatic Christianity, Islam & Judaism. For the non dogmatic of these religions, they probably don't care whether these institutions 'bless' yoga or demonize it.
"Hinduism" (Sanatana Dharma)'s lack of instutionalization, even to the extent of a loose federation to protect 'IP' theft etc, is once again coming to haunt us.
Below is another eloquent letter on this disconnect between Yoga & its Hindu roots in the US Yoga community, fostered by bigwig 'gurus'-
==============================================
May 16, 2010
Ms. Natalya Podgorny
Editor, Yoga +
Dear Madam,
I have been subscribing to your magazine for many years and have enjoyed reading articles on yoga and spirituality.
The founder of this magazine, Swami Rama was a Hindu by birth and followed the path of spiritual enlightenment based on the knowledge derived from the ancient Hindu/Vedic scriptures of more than five thousand years old. I presume that one of the learned scholars, Pandit Rajmani Tigunait who is born as a Hindu, has taken over the mantle of Swami Rama in spreading the knowledge and spirituality including Yoga rooted in the scriptures of Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma for the benefit of the mankind, of course by commercializing them which have been given to the world by the Hindu saints and sages free of charge.
The Himalayan Institute and your magazine have grown over the years and have become a part of the multi-billion dollar business in the U.S. While one may not pass a value judgement on the practice of turning spirituality into a money making business, it is indeed unethical and immoral to sell the spiritual product/s without acknowledging its origin and roots. Like other Yoga journals circulating in the country, Yoga+ has followed the same commercial path of deceptively and subtly de-linking Yoga from its mother, Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma. I have yet to see any article in your magazine which openly talks about Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma and gives credit to it for bequeathing the wonderful science of yoga to the world civilization. Yoga + writes and mentions often about Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Judaism but never about Hinduism. Why?
Pandit Rajmani Tigunait has been writing a series of articles on the Sage Patanjli's Yoga Sutra but no where he ever acknowledges its roots to Hinduism. I am sure that Pandit Tigunait, a Sanskrit scholar, is fully aware that one of the main limbs of Yoga as mentioned by Sage Patanjli is Yamas (Restraints) which requires the practitioner and the preacher to speak 'Satya' ('Truthfulness'), refrain from lying. The denial of the Hindu origin of Yoga by the manipulative and deceptive scholarship is nothing but negation of the ethical codes laid down in the Yogic traditions.
I am also sure that Pandit Tigunait knows that Yoga is one of the six schools of Hindu philosophy. May be that he like many other Hindu business gurus/yogis of modern time are willing to sell their souls by rejecting their own heritage and roots for fame and financial gains.
In the similar fashion, your magazine talks about 'Chakras', 'Puranas', Ayurveda and Vedantic philosophy without acknowledging their roots in Hinduism. We are aware that the Western Indologists and their supporters have made a big business to project Hinduism in the most negative and denigrating manner. They are portraying Hinduism in terms of 'Caste, cow and curry' and thereby distorting its history, culture and traditions to suite their personal agenda. While trashing Hinduism, they are simultaneously busy in appropriating its knowledge. It seems that the Yoga magazines including your magazine and Yoga schools operating in this country are also following the same Adharmic path of these Indologists of denying the credit to Hinduism for its valuable contributions to the world civilization.
I'll appreciate if you and Pandit Tigunait could please let me know as to your reason for denying the credit to Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma for the Yogic and spiritual knowledge that you are using to make money out of it. After all, you are benefiting out of the knowledge gifted to you by Hinduism free of charge. I hope you, your institute and Pandit Tiganait are left with some moral and Dharmic values which you preach in your magazine. Please remember that all these adharmic Karmas will bear their fruits one day from which there is no escape.
I would also like to state categorically that if your magazine and Institute continue to de-link Hinduism from Yoga and its other spiritual traditions, I'll discontinue its subscription and advise others to follow it.
Regards,
Dhiru Shah
India Awareness Foundation
Since they refuse to leave well alone & are slowly attempting to swallow up Yoga into their own apparatus, Hindus have to protest, and make sure the world knows that yogic fundamentals are incompatible with dogmatic Christianity, Islam & Judaism. For the non dogmatic of these religions, they probably don't care whether these institutions 'bless' yoga or demonize it.
"Hinduism" (Sanatana Dharma)'s lack of instutionalization, even to the extent of a loose federation to protect 'IP' theft etc, is once again coming to haunt us.
Below is another eloquent letter on this disconnect between Yoga & its Hindu roots in the US Yoga community, fostered by bigwig 'gurus'-
==============================================
May 16, 2010
Ms. Natalya Podgorny
Editor, Yoga +
Dear Madam,
I have been subscribing to your magazine for many years and have enjoyed reading articles on yoga and spirituality.
The founder of this magazine, Swami Rama was a Hindu by birth and followed the path of spiritual enlightenment based on the knowledge derived from the ancient Hindu/Vedic scriptures of more than five thousand years old. I presume that one of the learned scholars, Pandit Rajmani Tigunait who is born as a Hindu, has taken over the mantle of Swami Rama in spreading the knowledge and spirituality including Yoga rooted in the scriptures of Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma for the benefit of the mankind, of course by commercializing them which have been given to the world by the Hindu saints and sages free of charge.
The Himalayan Institute and your magazine have grown over the years and have become a part of the multi-billion dollar business in the U.S. While one may not pass a value judgement on the practice of turning spirituality into a money making business, it is indeed unethical and immoral to sell the spiritual product/s without acknowledging its origin and roots. Like other Yoga journals circulating in the country, Yoga+ has followed the same commercial path of deceptively and subtly de-linking Yoga from its mother, Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma. I have yet to see any article in your magazine which openly talks about Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma and gives credit to it for bequeathing the wonderful science of yoga to the world civilization. Yoga + writes and mentions often about Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Judaism but never about Hinduism. Why?
Pandit Rajmani Tigunait has been writing a series of articles on the Sage Patanjli's Yoga Sutra but no where he ever acknowledges its roots to Hinduism. I am sure that Pandit Tigunait, a Sanskrit scholar, is fully aware that one of the main limbs of Yoga as mentioned by Sage Patanjli is Yamas (Restraints) which requires the practitioner and the preacher to speak 'Satya' ('Truthfulness'), refrain from lying. The denial of the Hindu origin of Yoga by the manipulative and deceptive scholarship is nothing but negation of the ethical codes laid down in the Yogic traditions.
I am also sure that Pandit Tigunait knows that Yoga is one of the six schools of Hindu philosophy. May be that he like many other Hindu business gurus/yogis of modern time are willing to sell their souls by rejecting their own heritage and roots for fame and financial gains.
In the similar fashion, your magazine talks about 'Chakras', 'Puranas', Ayurveda and Vedantic philosophy without acknowledging their roots in Hinduism. We are aware that the Western Indologists and their supporters have made a big business to project Hinduism in the most negative and denigrating manner. They are portraying Hinduism in terms of 'Caste, cow and curry' and thereby distorting its history, culture and traditions to suite their personal agenda. While trashing Hinduism, they are simultaneously busy in appropriating its knowledge. It seems that the Yoga magazines including your magazine and Yoga schools operating in this country are also following the same Adharmic path of these Indologists of denying the credit to Hinduism for its valuable contributions to the world civilization.
I'll appreciate if you and Pandit Tigunait could please let me know as to your reason for denying the credit to Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma for the Yogic and spiritual knowledge that you are using to make money out of it. After all, you are benefiting out of the knowledge gifted to you by Hinduism free of charge. I hope you, your institute and Pandit Tiganait are left with some moral and Dharmic values which you preach in your magazine. Please remember that all these adharmic Karmas will bear their fruits one day from which there is no escape.
I would also like to state categorically that if your magazine and Institute continue to de-link Hinduism from Yoga and its other spiritual traditions, I'll discontinue its subscription and advise others to follow it.
Regards,
Dhiru Shah
India Awareness Foundation
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-20 07:06:16
So we are back to the idea of your post, that Yoga is Indian in its roots and spirit.
Which I already wholeheartedly agreed with.
But we both managed to fail the advice of the rishis to not waste our time with empty talk :-)
Talking about wasting time with empty stuff - not everyone has Facebook account.
Which I already wholeheartedly agreed with.
But we both managed to fail the advice of the rishis to not waste our time with empty talk :-)
Talking about wasting time with empty stuff - not everyone has Facebook account.
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written by dlahiri, 2010-05-20 06:22:05
As you say: >1) They have to uphold the authority of the Vedas
And also - Yoga is classified as one of the 6 ?stika schools. Because of its acceptance of the Vedas.
Hinduism to me seems to be just a concept developed to encompass the enormous diversity of similar, parallel, intercepting etc. religious and philosophical systems of the subcontinent. So by default it will include Yoga as well.
In closer to your work (which obviously don't do at the moment :-) terms:
Every server and domain is a part of the Internet.
But they are not created by the Internet. They are categorized and organized in it and hence build it up.
Remove them all and what will you end up with?
We are picking nits here my man.
Of course Hinduism is a blanket to encompass all six darshanas and tantric schools of India. Using the term Hinduism therefore is apt, since even though what is today called "Hinduism" didn't exist in ancient India, the other name used for it "Sanatana Dharma" (or Eternal Way) was. There are references to it in the Upanishads and Puranas. Also, Yoga wasn't just a product of/result of a spiritual paradigm, it was/is also a cultural aspect of what Indians have called Samskriti and parampara (tradition). So, in that context, those who try and deny Yogic roots in Hindu Dharma (Sanatana Dharma) are either being:
a) naive about the descriptions (Vedic vs Hindu)
or
b) deliberately obfuscative, since by denying this, they are indirectly aligning themselves with those (there are many in the Western world and among the westernized Indian intelligentsia) who promote "There is NO Such thing as Hinduism" by hiding behind technicalities
If you observe the top of your page, you will see that there is a button titled facebook on the upper right side of the website. You can use it to log in via your facebook account. I will add another button to allow logins directly from TMJ
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-20 04:40:46
BTW
1) How come I can not edit my post (just noticed the absence of "'nt" at the most important part)
2) why can't I log in to TMJ from any page
Have you been working to make the site less user friendly? :-)
1) How come I can not edit my post (just noticed the absence of "'nt" at the most important part)
2) why can't I log in to TMJ from any page
Have you been working to make the site less user friendly? :-)
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-20 04:33:50
> How then can Yoga be considered outside of Hinduism?
It can.
That wasn't the discussion. It was about the non/Vedic roots.
As you say: >1) They have to uphold the authority of the Vedas
And also - Yoga is classified as one of the 6 ?stika schools. Because of its acceptance of the Vedas.
Hinduism to me seems to be just a concept developed to encompass the enormous diversity of similar, parallel, intercepting etc. religious and philosophical systems of the subcontinent. So by default it will include Yoga as well.
In closer to your work (which obviously don't do at the moment :-) terms:
Every server and domain is a part of the Internet.
But they are not created by the Internet. They are categorized and organized in it and hence build it up.
Remove them all and what will you end up with?
It can.
That wasn't the discussion. It was about the non/Vedic roots.
As you say: >1) They have to uphold the authority of the Vedas
And also - Yoga is classified as one of the 6 ?stika schools. Because of its acceptance of the Vedas.
Hinduism to me seems to be just a concept developed to encompass the enormous diversity of similar, parallel, intercepting etc. religious and philosophical systems of the subcontinent. So by default it will include Yoga as well.
In closer to your work (which obviously don't do at the moment :-) terms:
Every server and domain is a part of the Internet.
But they are not created by the Internet. They are categorized and organized in it and hence build it up.
Remove them all and what will you end up with?
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written by dlahiri, 2010-05-20 03:51:42
agree with you on the reason behind secularization on Yoga in the West.
On the Hinduism - it is not like a good dish. A good dish has many ingredients and each one of them is needed for the dish to exist.Hinduism has many parts, that seem to be doing fine on their own. You follow one tradition, choose one way of picking from the cornucopia of scriptures, deities, rituals. And someone pick different ones.
As has been said: "Hinduism does not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith or a creed", but is rather an umbrella term comprising the plurality of religious phenomena originating and based on the Vedic traditions."
But then again, there are many not based on the Vedas.
Your question brings this one - Is Yoga from the former or the latter type?
You know your scriptures and history better than me.
What is the non-Vedic part of the Yoga roots?
We can discuss it tomorrow on a cup of your new Nilgiri tea. Or you can share with any lost reader of TMJ who stops by here :-)
What is called Hinduism today has the following preconditions that need to be met:
1) They have to uphold the authority of the Vedas
2) They must uphold the authority of the Bhagavad Gita
3) They must uphold the authority of the Brahma Sutras
(partha, pradipda, et al...please step in to correct me where I'm wrong)
So, yes, Hinduism is Vedic religion. Within it there are many ways to practice...one could be a Shaivite, a Vaishnavite, a Smartha, a Shakta etc. Definitely there have been tantric elements mixed with these traditions (and while the Tantric tradition doesn't accept the Vedas as infallible authority, they don't outright reject them). Modern Hinduism is a synthesis of these two (Veda and Tantra)
You don't have to go very far, but if you take the underlying philosophy/metaphysics of any of these traditions, they are either Vedantic or Samkhya-based, or a combination of the two. Yoga was the practical aspect of Sankhya philosophy, which evolved after incorporating Vedantic concepts and ideas. So, Yoga IS the practical aspect of Hinduism.
Take the Bhagavad Gita for instance...Sri Krishna talks about the Four Yogas... How then can Yoga be considered outside of Hinduism?
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-20 03:30:13
???? ???,
agree with you on the reason behind secularization on Yoga in the West.
On the Hinduism - it is not like a good dish. A good dish has many ingredients and each one of them is needed for the dish to exist.Hinduism has many parts, that seem to be doing fine on their own. You follow one tradition, choose one way of picking from the cornucopia of scriptures, deities, rituals. And someone pick different ones.
As has been said: "Hinduism does not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith or a creed", but is rather an umbrella term comprising the plurality of religious phenomena originating and based on the Vedic traditions."
But then again, there are many not based on the Vedas.
Your question brings this one - Is Yoga from the former or the latter type?
You know your scriptures and history better than me.
What is the non-Vedic part of the Yoga roots?
We can discuss it tomorrow on a cup of your new Nilgiri tea. Or you can share with any lost reader of TMJ who stops by here :-)
agree with you on the reason behind secularization on Yoga in the West.
On the Hinduism - it is not like a good dish. A good dish has many ingredients and each one of them is needed for the dish to exist.Hinduism has many parts, that seem to be doing fine on their own. You follow one tradition, choose one way of picking from the cornucopia of scriptures, deities, rituals. And someone pick different ones.
As has been said: "Hinduism does not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith or a creed", but is rather an umbrella term comprising the plurality of religious phenomena originating and based on the Vedic traditions."
But then again, there are many not based on the Vedas.
Your question brings this one - Is Yoga from the former or the latter type?
You know your scriptures and history better than me.
What is the non-Vedic part of the Yoga roots?
We can discuss it tomorrow on a cup of your new Nilgiri tea. Or you can share with any lost reader of TMJ who stops by here :-)
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written by dlahiri, 2010-05-19 17:21:21
Ev,
Hiding behind Vedic vs Hindu is a very feeble excuse to not accept one's fault. Hinduism is a Vedic religion with some Tantric Agamas thrown in...
I suspect that in the West, "secularizing" Yoga is a good business practice, that's all. I don't think there is a need to stand up on tree tops and profess that "Yoga is a Hindu practice", but to acknowledge it's roots is a good idea.
Also, remember, Hindu doesn't necessarily mean Hindu Religion, but Hindu Culture in general.
Also, you might be practicing Taiji Chuan without the fist, I like to think the fist is present in my practice
You make some good points about the other stuff though...
sorry about revealing your name to the rest of the world...you'll get some special hojicha and nilgiri tea as compensation
Hiding behind Vedic vs Hindu is a very feeble excuse to not accept one's fault. Hinduism is a Vedic religion with some Tantric Agamas thrown in...
I suspect that in the West, "secularizing" Yoga is a good business practice, that's all. I don't think there is a need to stand up on tree tops and profess that "Yoga is a Hindu practice", but to acknowledge it's roots is a good idea.
Also, remember, Hindu doesn't necessarily mean Hindu Religion, but Hindu Culture in general.
Also, you might be practicing Taiji Chuan without the fist, I like to think the fist is present in my practice
You make some good points about the other stuff though...
sorry about revealing your name to the rest of the world...you'll get some special hojicha and nilgiri tea as compensation
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written by evZENy, 2010-05-19 12:34:16
1. Good writers tend to change the names of their real friends in their stories :-)
2. As Yogi Ram pointed - the roods of Yoga are Vedic, not Hindu and I agree with that.
3. We do not study Taiji Chuan. And not only because you haven't spelled it correctly (Taijiquan or T'ai chi ch'uan - not a mix of the two), but because we don't do "the fist" part of it.
4. With all my respect to Deepak Chopra - it is the American newly hatched Yogis and Yoginis who filed and were granted patents on Yoga. Even the Indian government complained about that. Bringing religion to Yoga, especially a Western one, is equivalent to the American "cuisine": a way to get quickly satisfied with crap, that is often marketed as good for you. You either buy the fairy tales of Jesus, Mohamed, whoever-else and hope they will help you one day. Or you do Yoga and work on the Self NOW. The rest is just a psychological masturbation of very confused people and it ends in a similar way the real one does - messy and without the complete satisfaction of the Real Thing.
Yes, Jesus has been accepted in the Indian subcontinent as a rishi and reincarnation. The world view there accepts that.
The opposite is not possible - the doctrine and the Credo of the Christianity (similarly Judaism, Islam) are very clear what makes you a good follower.
And accepting concepts like Brahman, Atman, Sat etc. are not among them.
Few centuries ago, the Yogi-Christians would end up in modified Vrikshasana and burn like one for even considering such concepts:-)
The trouble as usual is the absence of knowing one's own believes. The ignorance among the "religious" people of all faiths is so great it is painful to think about it.
But then again, one need be ignorant to follow an organized religion and not follow the mystic paths, such as Yoga!
Evgeny
2. As Yogi Ram pointed - the roods of Yoga are Vedic, not Hindu and I agree with that.
3. We do not study Taiji Chuan. And not only because you haven't spelled it correctly (Taijiquan or T'ai chi ch'uan - not a mix of the two), but because we don't do "the fist" part of it.
4. With all my respect to Deepak Chopra - it is the American newly hatched Yogis and Yoginis who filed and were granted patents on Yoga. Even the Indian government complained about that. Bringing religion to Yoga, especially a Western one, is equivalent to the American "cuisine": a way to get quickly satisfied with crap, that is often marketed as good for you. You either buy the fairy tales of Jesus, Mohamed, whoever-else and hope they will help you one day. Or you do Yoga and work on the Self NOW. The rest is just a psychological masturbation of very confused people and it ends in a similar way the real one does - messy and without the complete satisfaction of the Real Thing.
Yes, Jesus has been accepted in the Indian subcontinent as a rishi and reincarnation. The world view there accepts that.
The opposite is not possible - the doctrine and the Credo of the Christianity (similarly Judaism, Islam) are very clear what makes you a good follower.
And accepting concepts like Brahman, Atman, Sat etc. are not among them.
Few centuries ago, the Yogi-Christians would end up in modified Vrikshasana and burn like one for even considering such concepts:-)
The trouble as usual is the absence of knowing one's own believes. The ignorance among the "religious" people of all faiths is so great it is painful to think about it.
But then again, one need be ignorant to follow an organized religion and not follow the mystic paths, such as Yoga!
Evgeny
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Granting that Truth belongs to every one and is for all time, Sri Rudra is only following modern conventions of bibliography, references, authorities and so on, where any person taking up a learning process acknowledges its known source. Especially if he intends to make a 'business' out of it. Not doing it is plain stealing.
Regards. Partha