It is only recently that Hindus are discovering that the terms of discussion for Indic practices have been conducted for the last few centuries primarily based on Western terms, standards and nomenclature. It is only in the last decade or so that Hindus have started looking at themselves through their own eyes and worldview, rather than blindly accepting what non-Hindus have perceived their culture to be. Among all their practices, if there one nomenclature that has been blindly accepted most by Hindus without any debate is: The Caste System. This article does not debate the merits and demerits of Caste and its origins (since it has been documented thousands of times and is available everywhere over the internet), but it solely focuses on the name under which it is commonly known, because as we shall see, nomenclature means a lot.
If you are lost somewhere, and are looking for directions, and a passerby tells you: Go ½ a mile, make a right, then go another mile and you will see a big tree next to Idiot Ivans house, make a left and go straight.. Then you start following directions and get lost again. You ask another passerby and she says: No. You need to make a right at Idiot Ivans house. Not a left. You continue, and yet are lost. You ask another man, and while he is talking, you notice that his mailbox says: Ivan. You completely switch your mind off, because you already have assumed him to be an idiot, since two people have called him that. He must be the village idiot, you think to yourself, and completely ignore his directions.
Naming is everything. Especially for discourse regarding common human behavior, it sets the playing field for discourse, and the name may be a deciding factor between who wins and loses the debate. A specific phrase search for Caste System under Google yields one Million+ results!
Before continuing, I would like to point out the impetus behind this article. Recently, Indian PM Manmohan Singh (who is not a Hindu) made a blunder when he said at a conference to highlight social and caste-system injustices in predominantly Hindu India: The discrimination faced by low-caste Hindus in India is similar to the suffering of blacks under apartheid in South Africa The only parallel to the practice of untouchability was apartheid.
Predictably the international press picked on to this cue, and sure enough the India baiters came out of the woodwork and issued their press releases: International scrutiny is growing and with it the condemnation of abuses resulting from the caste system and the governments failure to protect Dalits, said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. A resolution passed by the European Parliament on February 1, 2007 found Indias efforts to enforce laws protecting Dalits to be grossly inadequate
International organizations have smelt blood, and are warning of serious consequences. The only entity predictably which is defending India, is, predictably, the BJP which realizes that Manmohans stand is polar opposite to the stand taken during the World Conference Against Racism in Durban in 2001, when India had resolutely refused to allow a discussion on caste-based oppression. The government had steadfastly maintained, in the face of criticism from Dalit rights groups and NGOs, that notions based on caste are entirely different from race as a concept.
None of the Indian newspapers are making Indias point. No one wants to hold the proverbial bull by its horns and call a spade a spade. It behooves us ordinary Hindus to defend ourselves with nothing but a computer and our intellect, because this is an ideological war that we must win.
By no means is this article an attempt to rationalize many injustices that the lower castes in India face regularly: rapes, looting, killing and other forms of discrimination abound and must be eradicated. However, as I would like to point out, these injustices exist because the problem has been misdiagnosed, starting with its name. If we redefine the problem, then the solution could become much clearer. The Government of India is trying its best to solve this problem for the last sixty years, but without any success. Indeed, it is becoming apparent that the problem in rural areas is growing worse. The more money and resource the Government and NGOs pump in, the bleaker the results look. It is clear that the point of diminishing returns has been reached. Could they be barking up the wrong tree?
Lets first look at what a System is. The Wikipedia definition says: System (from Latin systēma, in turn from Greek σύστημα systēma) is a set of entities, real or abstract, comprising a whole where each component interacts with or is related to at least one other component and they all serve a common objective.
Does caste actually belong to this category?
Lets look at an example of a system, say, the nervous system. Turning again to Wikipedia: The nervous system coordinates the activity of the muscles, monitors the organs, constructs and also stops input from the senses, and initiates actions. Prominent participants in a nervous system include neurons and nerves, which play roles in such coordination.
Another example for a computer system: A computer system is the combination of hardware and software. A typical computer system has memory and set of states that define the relationship between the systems inputs and outputs.
Some (but not all) of the criteria for something to be termed a System are:
- There is either a central authority that monitors and controls its subordinates or a decentralized authority that controls and monitors each of the sub-components with it. Eg: Brain is the central authority of a nervous system (and spinal cord a sub-authority). Heart is the central authority of the respiratory system. Stomach is the central authority of the digestive system.
- Every component of a system has a specific purpose and it can play no other role or change its behavior. (Nerves can only carry information. to and from the brain. Arteries can only carry blood from the heart. Intestines can push food only in one direction.)
- All similar components of a system are expected to behave uniformly. (The nerves in your finger tip have exactly the same behavior as those in your forehead)
- Any part of the system which does not function as defined is immediately ejected from the system or punished otherwise. (A blood vessel which clots or erupts is immediately caught and ejected from your body)
Since Manmohan Singh likened Caste to Apartheid, let us first determine if the latter is indeed a System. From the Wikipedia definition: Apartheid (meaning separateness in Afrikaans cognate to English apart and -hood) was a system of racial segregation that was enforced in South Africa from 1948 to 1994. Apartheid was designed to form a legal framework for continued economic and political dominance by people of European descent.
Even going through some of the basic characteristics of Apartheid convinces one of the fact that Apartheid indeed was a system, because it was well, systematic. There was a central authority (South African government) which passed laws and enforced them to create and maintain the system of discrimination. The different organs of the system had specific roles to play: There were white judges who were appointed specifically to try cases against non-white people who violated laws. There were lawyers specializing in that discipline. The system was implemented uniformly, that is, a non-white person who was caught on a white-only beach was fined exactly the same amount of money in all parts of the country. No part of the system was allowed to deviate from its designed behavior, that is, a liberal white person who ran a restaurant could not violate the government policy and seat his non-white patrons along with his white customers. The system was backed by the force and dictat of State.
Now lets see if Caste indeed has some of the basic characters that are needed to classify it as a system. Is there a central authority which decides what the rules are for Caste, what the punishment for violating those rules is? No. (People often erroneously quote the ManuSmriti, a book which has not been referred by any Hindu for the last few Millennia. The number of Hindus who carry ManuSmriti in their homes is about the same as customers in Ford dealerships in Japan).
Do all the participants in Caste behave uniformly? Does a lower caste person get treated exactly the same way in Mumbai as in rural India? No. Does an upper caste person in Kerala treat a lower caste person similar to what happens in Bengal? No. I have relatives who have arranged inter-caste marriages. I have other relatives who have only grudgingly accepted their childrens inter-caste marriages. Yet other people I know have completely stopped speaking to their children who went against their wishes to marry inter-caste. And a few even tried to have their children killed. There is no uniformity.
Do all similar lower-caste people perform the same work? Are people from the sheep-herder caste in Karnataka sheep-herders? Or are they politicians, doctors and engineers as well? Are people of cobbler caste in UP all cobblers? Or do they work in offices, restaurants and theaters?
Are all violators of Caste treated similarly? Arent there weddings where people of all castes eat together and everyone accepts that? Arent there marriages where many upper-caste invitees bring their own food, all the time chiding the organizers of violating the caste codes? Arent there marriages where many upper-caste relatives threaten the bride and grooms parents to have separate eating halls for themselves or else they would not attend the wedding?
There is no uniform way Caste relations are conducted in India. It differs not only from caste to caste, but also region to region, state to state, from one economic class to another, town to town. Indeed, it varies from individual to individual. Hence, it cannot be termed as a system. There is a word in the English dictionary for this: Culture. As Wikipedia says: Most general, the term culture denotes whole product of an individual, group or society of intelligent beings. This describes the notion of caste perfectly.
The correct terminology to use is: The Caste Culture. Unfortunately, a search for Caste Culture on Google yields seventeen thousand results, out of which almost all yield results with the phrase Caste, Culture the comma in the middle indicating that they are two separate things.
Similarly, many other ills of India are not systems, but cultures. For E.g.: It is not a dowry system, but a dowry culture. But thats a separate discussion for another day.
Why does this terminology matter? Because once you specify it to be a culture, then the whole notion of what it is changes completely. Solutions to ills that are caused by a system can only be eradicated by an opposing system. E.g.: Apartheid was eradicated only by international sanctions from various states. However, solutions to ills that are caused by a culture can only be eradicated by a superior culture. Hence, Caste cannot be eradicated by the Government, NGOs specializing in Caste, or international outcry. Caste can only be eradicated by changing the culture of the populace. Its solution lies in identifying the root causes that manifest themselves in Caste discrimination and finding solutions to the root causes. In one region, the Caste problem might be caused due to inadequate water supply once the water issue is solved (channels, wells), the caste differences go away. In yet other case, Caste differences may come because of land disputes. Once a strong framework of land recording is created and maintained by the Government, the Caste disputes go away. Every case is different and needs individual attention and a different solution.
By calling Caste as a System, successive governments have tried to institute a one-size-fits-all policy to eradicate caste, thus failing at every attempt. Moreover, it gives the outsider the impression that the Government is in fact the cause or abettor of Caste in India. At the extreme level, it could cause international sanctions and the like to be imposed against India if care is not taken. The Manmohan Singh government ought to retract its statements and do some damage control soon.
As ordinary Hindus, we could preach the notion that Caste is a Culture and not a System in our own little way by frequenting websites and resetting the framework of the debate. This article is a first step in that direction.

written by Raju, 2007-04-16 10:55:10
First there is a media spin caste based reservation is given a name of caste
based discrimination.
Yes, you are right caste based discrimination evokes a very powerful and
negative response if we accept the media spin.
Who are these people? These are the people who want status quo as it suits
them. These are very loud and vocal people and form a small percentage
of Indian population having support of media and in sections of establishment.
These are doctors and engineers and civil servants from higher caste
protesting reservation in the name of objective criteria. These are the same
people who are ready to join institutions of higher education where
financial donation is criteria. Reality is that it is not easy to break
the network of establishment formed by higher castes.
Justice is the central issue. There may be side effects as caste is a
like a cancer to Indian society. Development of a country without development
of people is meaningless.
It is up to every individual if they want accept framework of spirituality
and using path of quick legal justice to the lower castes who have been
dominated and subjugated for over 2000 years. One is free to select path
of politicians of creating analysis paralysis or diverting attention
from main issue.
I will stop here as I have said enough on this discussion forum and
I don’t have more to say on ‘The Caste Non-System’.
written by rudra, 2007-04-13 15:40:08
I don't think you are right about "Caste" fading away into oblivion. Caste will stay alive and in the active public imagination if policies that tend to divide the Indian Society along those lines exist.
I think by rejecting the "Power" Caste-based discrimination evokes, by ignoring such lines of divisiveness, only then can this monster be slain.
written by Raju, 2007-04-13 15:20:48
preservation is not the issue. I believe after socio-economic and cultural
development caste identity will become meaningless, till this happens one
cannot remove caste from the equation of justice. However this should not
stop one from fine tuning/optimizing implementation of the system or making
suggestions. You have made some interesting suggestions.
written by rudra, 2007-04-13 14:10:37
See this for more detailed analysis of The Reservation System, Mandal Commission and some suggested correctives --
http://medhajournal.com/columns/current-affairs/the-reservation-complex----a-look-at-the-systematic-approach-to-treat-a-non-systematic-problem.html
To quote from it --
1) Create non-sectarian/non-casteist parameters to ascertain the economic capabilities of families in India.
2) Create a social-security framework that will gradually develop into a foundation for a robust socio-economic support system for the Indian citizens (the aged, the ailing, and veterans – akin to the way it is set up in the US.)
3) Create taxes that the Indian “haves†will have to pay in order to support and uplift the “have-notsâ€.
These taxes and funds should be used to provide basic education and improve the public school system in India
Create “Scholarship†funds that might be reserved exclusively for the under-privileged classes (as ascertained by the parameters in condition 1 in this list) for a limited period of time (say 50 more years). Students who grow up studying within the Public school system (new and upgraded to private school system standards) will be eligible to opt for these scholarships – but there would have to be a natural selection in place there. Have them participate in the competitive exams and tests that everyone else in India has to, except that their education will be paid for by these scholarships.
4) Ensure that all employers are “Equal Opportunity†Employers and that they are accountable and auditable in this regard. Also, provide legal machinations for the common man to challenge any employer who might have unjustly discriminated against him/her.
written by Raju, 2007-04-12 09:12:41
Reservation is designed to help/uplift people who are caught in the trap of lower socio-economic and cultural background as a result of caste. Easiest and effective way to identify such people is to use case as a basis. It is for this reason reservation is based on caste.
If all Indian political parties support caste based reservation whole heartedly then it will no longer be election or political issues.
I agree that you could come up with more criteria to make system just. Criteria you have mentioned are necessary but not sufficient.
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-11 21:27:42
(I lost a lot of stuff that I typed here. I will try again)
There have been a lot of benign practices that evolved along with the malignant ones like untouchability, etc. I do not have problems with the benign ones (they may be interesting in terms of the diversities).
Successive Indian governments have been keen on retaining vote banks and Reservations would be a tool in keeping the vote banks.
Now, why should Reservations be caste based? Would it not eventually preserve the malignancy you have pointed out? The portfolio of dominant castes may change but the malignancy would still remain.
My question to you and other supporters of Reservation System in India is the following: Why shouldn't reservations be based on purely economic and educational backwardness of families? I mean the granularity should be at the level of families.
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-11 21:15:56
There are quite a number of benign practices that evolved along caste lines, along with the malicious practices like untouchability, discrimination etc. I do not have problems with those cultural aspects that are benign.
Indian government (whichever party runs that) has not been earnest in addressing any of these malicious aspects. They have been seeking vote banks. Reservations, in my opinion should not be caste-based. Building it on caste divides would create a new set of people who take undue advantage. The castes that dominate might get shuffled but the scenario essentially preserves the malignancy that existed all along.
My question to you or anyone who supports our Reservation system is: Why not ignore caste aspects while deciding who gets the benefits? Why shouldn't every poor family and every educationally backward family get these benefits? This would keep the well off people from milking the system.
written by Raju, 2007-04-10 16:15:08
Dear MoorNam,
1) In my opinion your analysis is limited by the definition of system that is being used.
Think of complex and large and dynamic and non-determinists systems where initial conditions change from experiment to experiment and population data interact with each other in unknown ways. It is difficult to define these types of systems leave alone modeling it. Such types of systems i.e. social, cultural and others follow rules that we not necessarily fully understand. These types of systems not necessarily produce exact results every time but produce similar outputs.
What else can explain continued formation, propagation and upholding of caste for centuries after century and in every region every district for more than 2000 years?
I will say that implementation of caste system has been nothing but systematic.
I or you will not like if some one says that you have no consciousness as it does not follow the definition mentioned in the book OR it is not in the book. I am trying to say here that reductionistic approach of analysis generates more questions than it answers as it leaves out important details.
2) Understanding caste in Hindu terms
Majority of the Hindus have always understood caste system as non-Spiritual, evil and unjust social and cultural practices. Hindus do not need Western terms to understand spirituality or injustice or evil or caste system. Yes, it is true that West has pointed out
caste as either unjustifiable or not innocuous cultural practice. What is wrong with West showing us our mistakes? Any way Hindus are supposed to seek truth.
Hindus know that caste system is worse than apartheid or slavery as it is at cultural level. Any law cannot eliminate it completely but this should stop Indian government from taking reservation and other measures.
Caste is like a cancer to Indian society; during treatment some healthy cells may get killed. Challenge to every Hindu is to come up with a better method.
- Raju
written by Raju, 2007-04-10 15:14:11
Divine revelation of Vedas happed happened 1000 to 2000 years before time
Of Mahabharata. Until time of Mahabharata time it was part of oral traditions Of various families of Rishis. Some one had to put all Vedas together the way we have today, it is believed that it was Ved Vysa.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyasa).
I am not claiming that rituals existed before Vedas.
-Raju
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-10 08:26:31
Bangalorean,
You do contradict yourself in the SAME post. Let me first quote the first of your contentions:-
"... they are a huge block of OBCs reaping all the benefits of Reservation system"
If some communities did reap "benefit" from the Reservation System (you do say some have reaped ALL benefits), it would appear that positive discrimination measures were effective to those communities, to that extent. Which means this can well work similarly for other under-represented communities too in the future....
But you contradict yourself a few sentences down the line:-
"India would have had more Dalits and more of the real OBCs uplifted if economic and educational backwardness were the only basis for reservations."
Would "Gowdas and Lingayats in Karnataka" have become "economically and educationally forward" (as you say, they have) without reservations? You mean they did not reap benefits of the Reservation system? Please decide!
Come on, we are NOT discussing who deserves to be uplifted. Perhaps the "Gowdas and Lingayats in Karnataka" no longer need to be covered under affirmative action. As to which community is REALLY under-represented (among creamy layer), this can easily verified through census or surveys. Who is blocking such counts? But this is NOT what we are discussing.
We are discussing correcting of a social situation where certain identifiable groups (such as the African Americans, Women, Dalits, tribals, some erstwhile Sudra groups etc) are grossly under-represented within the creamy layer of population at large (as a direct and persisting consequence of past oppression of their ancestors).
We are discussing affirmative action measures that need to be initiated IN ADDITION to measures to alleviate general poverty and improve general educational standards.
Most civilised societies (including North America) have accepted the need for such special measures to uplift under-represented identifiable communities/ groups. (In Kerala and Tamil Nadu, general poverty and educational backwardness could be tackled effectively -- ALONG WITH uplift of certain communities through reservations. This can be the model for all other States)
You are of course welcome to join in "huge anti-reservation rallies" -- just as some others may join in equally huge "pro-reservation rallies". All societies do need to grapple and cope with such conflicts of interests among various groups...
Anand Nair
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-10 07:53:31
Moornam,
You said, "I cannot think of a single person who has ever mentioned bringing back untouchability or segregation..."
In which case please do NOT fret about International Sanctions against our liberal nation!
Let us go ahead and say (without fear of "sanctions") that practices such as untouchability or segregation that were vogue in India till recent times were just as barbaric as racism among other cultures.
Anand Nair
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-10 05:35:34
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/04_2007/deprived-of-books-girl-ends-life-38134.html
It should not really matter which caste this girl belonged to. Her family needed help. It is poverty and educational needs that needs to be addressed. Why should caste be a factor here?
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-10 05:14:19
A.1) Caste did not exists the way it is practiced today during Vedic
period. However it was well established along with rituals when
Ved Vysa compiled Vedas around the time of Mahabharata.
Veda Vyasa did not compile Vedas.
And which rituals do you think existed before the vedas?
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-10 04:56:46
"But the very fear expressed by Bangalorean that some day, the "suppressor" castes will become the "suppressed" shows that there is a descernible trend towards correcting the existing gross skew in the "representation" of various (erstwhile) caste groups among the "creamy layer" of society at large. This fear (that we get to hear commonly these days) is indicative that we need not be too pessimistic about the future success of the policy of reservations... "
This is funny logic. Wishful thinking. Consider Gowdas and Lingayats in Karnataka. They are economically and educationally forward. Yet they are a huge block of OBCs reaping all the benefits of Reservation system.
I also do not see that these two castes removed from the list of beneficiaries anytime in the future. Welcome to the new Caste System!!
My point is this:
To attack the negative things about caste culture one need not bring in caste equations again. Just assess educational and economic backwardness. Then you might see that most Dalits get benefited. The real OBCs will be benefited. The underprivileged forward caste families will be benefited. Where is the place for any caste discrimination in this scheme? Isn't this a good way to go?
My take on caste system vs culture is that it is a complex system with cultural associations. There are benign and malicious things associated with it. Removing the malicious things is the objective of good governance. If addressing economic and educational backwardness is the real concern, the process of going through caste equations again would be counter-productive.
India would have had more Dalits and more of the real OBCs uplifted if economic and educational backwardness were the only basis for reservations. You also would not have had huge anti-reservation rallies too. And there would be no discussion on creamy layers.
Manmohan Singh might say that Untouchability has parallels to Apartheid. Untouchability is out-lawed and is relegated to remote corners of India. But we have a well legislated Apartheid II that is practised now and that goes by the name Reservation Systems.
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-09 12:21:53
Moornam,
I am happy that we are in agreement that WITHOUT government measures, progress towards dismantling the practice of caste "culture" would have been far worse. I even agree with you that some govt measures were more successful than others; and more at some states than at others. (As to WHICH measures were more successful, let the jury be still out. That is okay with me)
You asked, "Then why are a great majority of dalits still backward?"
The elevation of few dalits to the "creamy layer" represents the success of reservations; and the continuation of a great majority as backward represents the failure.
But the very fear expressed by Bangalorean that some day, the "suppressor" castes will become the "suppressed" shows that there is a descernible trend towards correcting the existing gross skew in the "representation" of various (erstwhile) caste groups among the "creamy layer" of society at large. This fear (that we get to hear commonly these days) is indicative that we need not be too pessimistic about the future success of the policy of reservations...
Responding to my statement that there MUST be international sanctions against us (if we are UNABLE to display to the world our sincerety in abolishing the caste culture), you said:-
"I really need you to rethink this statement. Caste culture will not go away."
As I said, I am not so pessimistic. Remember the "fear" that Banglorean and others freely express? This "fear" is the hope of the dalits!
You went on, "People will still marry within castes. People will still interact personally within castes. Most small businesses (where the bulk of the economy resides) will still hire within family (and thus within caste)."
Let me ASSURE you that there will NEVER be international sanctions in response to the above benignly parochial practices -- even if these continue indefinitely into the future. These are NOT the manifestations of the barbaric caste "culture" that we are referring to!!!
You went on, "It would be prudent to recognise the difference between institutionalised discrimination and personal discrimination."
I agree with this. So does Manmohan Singh! The aspects (about our culture) that we would like to bracket along with racism include barbaric practices such as untouchability, segregation etc. Let me assure you that the international community FULLY understands this distinction.
If ever a future government creates conditions to revive cultural practices such as untouchability and segregation (say, as part of the insidious project of "cultural nationalism") -- we deserve to to be slapped with international sanctions (and indeed, local resistance). Why not?
Anand Nair
written by Raju, 2007-04-09 12:07:15
Caste is a system of cultural controls.
A) One cannot isolate history from present.
Following is short summary of relevant history of development
and preservation of caste system to show that caste system is
operating at cultural level.
A.1) Caste did not exists the way it is practiced today during Vedic
period. However it was well established along with rituals when
Ved Vysa compiled Vedas around the time of Mahabharata.
A.2) After Mahabharata came the Puranic period which marked spread of
Hinduism in eastern and southern parts of India by priestly caste.
- deological motivation for spreading Hinduism came from Manusmrti.
Manusmrti also talks about creating a closed hierarchal system
of caste.
Ref: Ancient Hinduism as a Missionary Religion By Arvind Sharma
- Reward in terms of land, cattle and also higher social status
in world was another motivation for spreading Hinduism
by priestly caste.
Priestly class received benefits for being agent of King and
also from tribal’s, new converts to Hinduism, in the form
dan/donation of cattle, farm land, temple land, services etc.
King used priestly caste to introduce caste system in tribal land
and then control the tribal economy.
Caste system introduced by priestly caste not only maintained
lower status tribal’s (new converts) but also lower status of
King.
This was a very clever implantation of caste system using mean of
cultural control.
A.3) Caste system also underwent went modification at local level to
ensure adherence without force as priestly caste did not
use weapons. During this process priestly caste was accepting
local superstition, rituals, worship as part of Hinduism and
local/regional versions of various Puranas were created.
Intially priestly caste played the role of a pioneer,
integrator and educator. Advancement of agriculture civilization
turned tribal’s into peasants or guild craftsmen belonging to
various caste and untouchables who did not fit into original
version of caste system
A.4) Following is list of some of things used to maintain cultural
system of caste
- Change of caste was not allowed on the basis of wrong
karma theory
- A system of gotra and pravara was created to promote marriages
only within a caste. This is a custom which has no religious
sanction. It was first mentioned in Matsya purana around the
time of spread of Hinduism to the east and south.
- Justification of caste system as having divine sanction when
no such thing exists.
- Limited education, temple entry etc to no lower caste.
B) Non-Deterministic system.
Creation, transmission and upholding of caste system happened at cultural
level this is non-deterministic system. One cannot look at the results i.e.
regional variation and say that caste is not a system. I agree that it is not a deterministic system.
Non deterministic cultural system of caste control is expected to create regional variations as initial conditions are different in each region and may have few things common with chaos theory model.
Note:
Deterministic system - A system in which the output can be predicted with
100 percent certainty for example like electronic computers in use today.
In my view “The Caste Non-System†is a null hypothesis.
Q.E.D. - "Quod Erat Demonstrandum"
Implications of this is that Indian government is not the business of cultural control of castes but is obliged to remove obstacles created by caste system by providing opportunities of development to the victims of caste system.
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-09 03:28:49
dwai,
I do NOT care to join issue on whether or not Caste is a System, or Cultural entity! I do NOT care to join issue on whether Caste was/will ever be a Systematic oppression of the so-called "Lower Castes" the way Apartheid or Racial Segregation was towards Colored-people.
I have already said that there is nothing to comment if THIS is the ONLY point that is sought to be made by moornam and by bangalorean.
But then, both the main blog and the comment by Bangalorean go BEYOND (what I personally regard as) the irrelevant distinction between "system" and "culture". In the blog, moornam goes on to tell us why "terminology" matters. To quote moornam:-
a) "Caste cannot be eradicated by the Government, NGO’s specializing in Caste, or international outcry." [I disagree with THIS.]
b) "By calling Caste as a System, successive governments have tried to institute a one-size-fits-all policy to eradicate caste, thus failing at every attempt." [ I do NOT agree that government measures have been an unmitigated failure. I hold that WITHOUT government measures, progress towards dismantling the practice of caste "culture" would have been far worse.]
c) "Moreover, it gives the outsider the impression that the Government is in fact the cause or abettor of Caste in India." [I disagree. It is internationally accepted that the Indian governments and laws are committed to eradicating caste practices within our culture.]
d) "At the extreme level, it could cause international sanctions and the like to be imposed against India if care is not taken. " [I feel that if we persist with "caste culture" then there MUST be international sanctions against us.]
I seek to specifically point out the flaws in the following arguments against affirmative action/ positive discrimination policies as adopted by the Indian governments:-
a) Reservations were not helpful to achieve (at least to a great extent) the intended aim -- which is to enlarge the creamy layer among the beneficiary communities to the size of this among the non-quota communities. [Reservations were greatly helpful to the dalits -- especially where sincerely implemented]
b) Reservations are bad in bringing out "merit" from within society [Social diversity, resulting from a wider social base, helps to bring out the untapped potential merit within societies]
c) Reservations will result in possible reversal of roles in the supressor and the supressed [If this happens, the beneficiary of quota too will reverse]
All the above arguments are thus WRONG...
Anand Nair
written by Dwai, 2007-04-08 14:38:23
Do you or do you not agree that Caste is not a System, but a Cultural entity?
Do you refute the theory (in this paper) that Caste never was/will be a Systematic oppression of the so-called "Lower Castes" the way Apartheid or Racial Segregation was towards Colored-people?
I don't think the author here is trying to oppose the fact that Caste is bad. Please don't build up strawmen and kill them ad infinitum/ad nauseum just because you like to waste your time on the Internet. Same holds good for the other threads as well. A gentle suggestion ... please remember it.
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-08 12:36:45
Moornam,
You said (admitting to the success of Reservations in improving the lot of dalits since 1947), "The problem is that this was done at the expense of meritorious students from upper castes for no fault of theirs,.."
This is a legitimate point! I had already stated in response to Banglorean that he may not personally like quotas and other positive discrimination measures (that discriminate against him or his kids) -- and he may well protest against these (on THIS ground).
I am specifically pointing out the flaws in the following arguments against affirmative action/ positive discrimination:-
a) Reservations were not helpful to achieve (at least to a great extent) the intended aim -- which is to enlarge the creamy layer among the beneficiary communities to the size of this among the non-quota communities. [Reservations were greatly helpful to the dalits -- especially where sincerely implemented]
b) Reservations are bad in bringing out "merit" from within society [Social diversity, resulting from a wider social base, helps to bring out the untapped potential merit within societies]
c) Reservations will result in possible reversal of roles in the supressor and the supressed [If this happens, the beneficiary of quota too will reverse]
All the above arguments are thus WRONG...
As for sticking to the point, I will do so based on what I regard as the point! You may well be the author, but this is a public blog, and you would do well to expect to hear opinions that you differ with -- even when these are what you would prefer to denigrate (or seek to silence) as besides the point!
Anand Nair
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-08 04:59:35
Banglorean,
You said, "I would say that this [creamy layer among dalits] would have been much bigger if there was an genuine effort in improving their fundamental education etc."
I agree with you. Which is why states like Kerala and Tamil Nadu have been more successful -- particularly compared to North Indian states.
What is significantt is that the more successful states are ALSO those that implemented reservations with greater sincerety (and with larger quota %).
The point being that it is an error to suggest that the policy of Reservations has been the CAUSE of the sortcomings in uplifting of dalits!
The argument of "merit" too is flawed. Narrow social base (as is the result of under-representation of large communities in colleges etc) undermines the emergence of potential merit that lies untapped.
You may not personally like quotas and other positive discrimination measures (that discriminate against you or your kids) -- and you may well protest against these.
But it does NOT help to delude ourself into believing that reservations were not helpful to achieve (at least to a great extent) the intended aim -- which is to enlarge the creamy layer among the beneficiary communities to the size of this among the non-quota communities.
It does NOT help to shed tears about "merit" being overlooked -- this too is a convenient delusion. (Affirmative Action policies are intended to widen the social base -- and thus unlock the full potential of merit within a society)
You concluded, "The evils of caste differences will remain with a possible reversal of roles in the supressor and the supressed."
Don't worry about that! For THIS to happen, the policy of reservations will need to become immensely effective. And even if this actually happens some time in the distant future, the beneficiary communities of quotas ALSO will reverse! Obviously so, right?
Anand Nair
written by Banglorean, 2007-04-07 08:21:19
The fundamental error in your approach is the assumption that affirmative action policies and legal measures (including reservations) have been unmitigated failures. As a matter of fact, they have been hugely successful in:-
a) Creating a large "creamy layer" among the dalits and erstwhile lower castes since 1947
b) Confining vile cultural practices such as untouchability and sati to remote corners of India
c) Empowering of dalits and erstwhile lower castes through universal adult franchise (more at some places and less elsewhere -- in practice)
You do admit that the creamy layer is small amongst the Dalits. I would say that this would have been much bigger if there was an genuine effort in improving their fundamental education etc.
As to Untouchability: You could achieve the same results irrespective of whether you have quota or not.
As to your point (c), they were empowered anyway, after the British left and after India set up a democratic constitution.
With what Indian government is doing now, caste differences will play a major role, but with shuffling of castes in the pecking hierarchy. The evils of caste differences will remain with a possible reversal of roles in the supressor and the supressed.
written by Raju, 2007-04-04 17:46:53
If mother India i.e. Bharat Mata takes care of her neglected child then why should brothers and sisters of neglected child raise objections?
Is neglected child considered part of the family?
Is there a better action plan for development of neglected child?
It is observed that there is no strong objection to people who get
admission to institutions of higher education on the basis of financial donations as they will be learning and adding value to the society then why do people take objections to reservations.
Over here we see four types of thoughts/observations
1) It is not up to the UC to help the LC.
2) Indian government cannot and should not help lower caste
3) Problem does not exist.
4) Attachment to future results of actions even before taking one.
It is said that one will accept non-action if one wants
status quo.
I believe premise is as follows:
1) Problem of development of lower caste & untouchables exist
and should be solved.
(One cannot isolate history from present.)
2) Logic of negativism is not going to solve the problem
3) Creative action is a must.
(Opposing Indian government action when alternative does not
exist is not an action plan.)
4) Indian philosophy is useless if used only for discussions
5) Spirituality is fundamental source of creative action
Human beings are gifted with consciousness unlike other species on
this planet. They take care for their fellow beings. Co-operation is what set humans on the path of development. Logic of survival of the fittest doe not leave much room for spirituality and creativity.
Rig Vedic dragon Vrita in humans that prevents creative growth is
killed again and again by Indra. I believe Rig Veda, Bhagavad-Gita etc and also sacred books of other religions condemn Nirriti (non-action). Rig Vedic model advises us to move from chaotic Asat to creative Sat.
written by dwai, 2007-04-04 13:08:07
Even countries do not abandon their companies to the market forces but it is expected that Indian government should leave people’s development issues to market forces. How can one justify this? What is the incentive for higher caste to help lower caste? This did not happen in the past then what is the rationale that it will happen say in this century?
The point is that it should not be upto the UC to help the LC. The drive to achieve and uplift themselves should come from within (be it a member of UC or LC). The Govt. should provide a sound system by which all citizens who belong to economically challenged category should be able to leverage Uniform advantage (gain education, etc). After that, let the fittest survive.
written by karigar, 2007-04-04 10:38:37
For those who are mystified by people entertaining utopian visions of achieving "Equality" by dumbing down all to the Lowest Comon Denominator, here's a 2 part "visit" to a mythical land where reservation has taken care of that "Evil" called "merit"....
The Land of Equality, Part I (http://sankrant.sulekha.com/bl...part-i.htm )
and
Quota Land: Part II: The Department of Social Division
(http://sankrant.sulekha.com/bl...art-ii.htm )
Excerpt from part 2:
I was now even more curious about this remarkable country of Ladnam. How did they come up with this system of victim ratings for all admissions and jobs? I figured the university would be the right place to find out – I asked a student for directions to the Social Sciences department.
“Head to the central square, you can’t miss it. All the red buildings are part of the department,†he said.
The Social Sciences department occupied the entire central square. As I walked towards it I found that it was the plushest part of the city that I had seen. There were dozens of multi-storied red buildings around the square, with some words etched in stone on the doorways. In the center was the large statue of a man dressed in a suit with the words below “Merit is a Myth.†The building entrances had other slogans emblazoned across the doorways – “Equal results, not equal opportunitiesâ€, “To treat unequals as equals only serves to perpetuate inequalityâ€, “Radical equality requires radical discrimination,†“Victims shall inherit the earth†and “Marching towards universal cellular equality.â€
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-04 01:24:02
thebigthinkg,
You have nicely summarized the issues involved....
Anand Nair
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-04 01:15:31
Moornam,
The fundamental error in your approach is the assumption that affirmative action policies and legal measures (including reservations) have been unmitigated failures. As a matter of fact, they have been hugely successful in:-
a) Creating a large "creamy layer" among the dalits and erstwhile lower castes since 1947
b) Confining vile cultural practices such as untouchability and sati to remote corners of India
c) Empowering of dalits and erstwhile lower castes through universal adult franchise (more at some places and less elsewhere -- in practice)
Much more still remains to be done:-
a) The creamy layer among dalits (though larger now than in 1947) is still tiny, compared to the creamy layer among the upper castes. Which means that we need to persist with affirmative action in the years to come.
b) We need to root out de facto untouchability, segregation and sati even from the remote villages
c) We need to spread awareness of the power of the vote among the dalits and other oppressed sections.
d) Implementation of reservations on ground was sabotaged to a great extent (particularly in North India)
But what rudra regards as the reasons for the "failure" of affirmative action (and other govt measures) are not based on above. He believes that affirmative action is "anti-merit"! He believes that "reservations do not make sense"; that "vote banks" are a bad thing.
He himself admits that the solutions suggested are "simplistic" -- in fact by recommending reservations/ benefits based purely on "economic" criterion, he seems to be giving lip service to an umimplementable and utopian version of socialism! He seeks to sweep the fact of continuing caste-based social inequity under the carpet of economic inequity. He will support and propose anything (including socialistic measures!)if only while arguing for doing away with reservations and affirmative action that the some selfish elements among the non-quota categories find painful to their narrow self interest...
Socialistic measures as recommended by Rudra -- taxing the rich, scholarships & benefits for the poor -- are fine. If these are feasible, let us have these -- in addition to affirmative action.
But why this tremendous keenness to live in denial that poverty in India (as it is in the US) is disproportionately prevalent among certain identifiable communities? Why this reluctance to admit that this social skew is a DIRECT consequence of the oppressive caste "culture" that has been prevalent in India -- including during the years of Moghul and British rule?
Why this reluctance to admit the fact that BECAUSE large communities are under-represented, THEREFORE India is unable to tap the potential merit that lie undiscovered among these millions? Why this reluctance to recognize that widening of the social base will unshakle the merit that lies untapped within huge mass of under-represented communities?
Why this reluctance to admit that in India, the economically successful states (since Independence) are those that have implemented Reservations with greater vigour (with larger quotas; and more sincere implementation on ground)? That we need to replicate the success of the Southern States (in this area) in the North too?
Anand Nair
written by Raju, 2007-04-03 16:34:20
Indian government provides subsidy and support to business companies in the initial stages i.e. nurture companies till they can stand on their own and also protect established companies from foreign companies. Why no one raises country wide protests and objections? In fact when Indian government provides support to Indian companies fewer resources are available for people’s development issues like health care, education etc.
Should Indian companies be left to market forces? Even USA, Japan and Europe provide subsidy to their farmers. They are not left to market forces.
You can make politicians accountable for their mistakes for this you have tools of law and democracy at your disposal.
Parents nurture their children for long time until they can stand on their own. If mother has say five kids and she takes care of sick child does it does not mean that she does not love her other kids and sick child’s brothers and sisters understand that. If mother India i.e. Bharat mata takes care of her neglected child then why should other kids raise objections?
Even countries do not abandon their companies to the market forces but it is expected that Indian government should leave people’s development issues to market forces. How can one justify this? What is the incentive for higher caste to help lower caste? This did not happen in the past then what is the rationale that it will happen say in this century?
I don’t know how raising ideological issue of market forces is going to solve the real human development problem.
written by dwai, 2007-04-03 10:20:26
Hmm...we're discussing this refusal to read another perspective in the other discussion thread (on the Human Brain). Left-brain's interpreter module overriding everything else perhaps?
I don't have to summarize what I've already written several pages on (the Article I'm referring to). You don't want to go into that because that will deflate your argumentation.
written by TheBigThinkg, 2007-04-03 03:22:57
I am not sure I understood fully what u wrote. But these are my views on this.
1. Caste is a form of aggregation of people once done based on profession which stuck on even when such groups of people migrated to other professions. For example potters by profession would have migrated to other professions due to lack of living support, but would still mix inside their group only.
2. This aggregation became a form of seggregation, which is what apartheid also is. A form of seggregation based on a person's race, which is explicitly seen by others in skin color, facial features and hair type. In case of caste, seggregation is based on aggregation of a group of people.
3. Aggregation of people (meaning caste) cannot be prevented. But seggregation of people can be prevented. Caste system in itself is not apartheid. But caste based suppression that is prevalent is apartheid.
4. Has India done enough to prevent seggregation of people and denial of opportunities based on caste and to establish equality amongst multiple castes..? No Not really. But then it depends on a particular country to decide what its priorities are.
5. We need to accept in the international fora, that, we do have a problem of caste based distinction that is prevalent. Caste is entwined in our culture and if people want the caste system to flourish, let it flourish. We can't abolish castes because somebody in europe thinks that way.
6. As an equal opportunity government, we need to ensure that the castes that have been suppressed are given due recognition and help to come up in the social ladder. That the government is trying to do. It may not be successful. If somebody in europe has a solution to it, we will listen. But we will decide on how to handle our home.
7. There is no need for us to unneccessarily get agitated when someone points to what they perceive as our problems. We will acknowledge it and thank them for pointing it out, if we also think so. But then we know better to handle it.
8. There is no need for comparisons, downplaying, justification, definition and re-defintion and a lot of hulla-bullah, just to gain some political mileage.
"If we want to improve, negative feedback is a must." This is an universal law that operates in many spheres. If we stop negative feedback, the loss is only for us.
-TBT
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-03 00:48:52
You wrote, "I would like to know a solution where government is not part of the solution of removing evil caste culture. I believe changing label from caste system to caste culture is an interesting intellectual/mind/ brain exercise and does not address issue of heart ethics. "
Well said...
Anand Nair
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-03 00:45:37
You said, "Please read this article -- "
No, I will NOT. Unless you tell me what is in "this article" that you cannot summarize (or copy & paste) here in response to the points raised by me...
Anand Nair
written by Raju, 2007-04-02 17:50:27
I don’t believe inaction or no-action on part of government is any solution to evil caste culture. Government action is going to take form of reservation and other incentives whether I like it or not. I would like to know a solution where government is not part of the solution of removing evil caste culture. I believe changing label from caste system to caste culture is an interesting intellectual/mind/ brain exercise and does not address issue of heart ethics.
written by karigar, 2007-04-02 13:35:55
See how convenient it is to take all the writings / laws / theories that have debunked "Race" and run a "find / replace" (put "caste" for "race") so that all these documents come out looking like they pertain to, and are a solution to the "caste system".
The problem, is of (a) intellectual dishonesty & laziness in not understanding the high dis-similarities in both situations, when one does such a "cut 'n paste", and (b) a well orchestrated intent to force fit Indian society into pre set concepts based on Euro/Western catagories based on the Colonialism / Imperial experience, such as "slavery" & "Racism".
Also one can note the "Aryan Invasion Theories" & it's assorted morphs that are the invisible ground on which these theories attempt to be credible. (i.e. What "one group" dominating the "other group" are we talking of, in the fluid & constantly changing patterns of power in the highly diverse Indian society? Without the AIT & morphs to lean heavily on, one is left with no convincing answer. )
written by dwai, 2007-04-02 07:21:26
Please read this article --
Follow a link from the first page (find article titlted Reservation Complex) to read some recommended solutions.
You are very trigger-happy....perhaps you should have a safety lock, lest you shoot yourself in the foot in the process?
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-02 04:43:06
dwai,
You said, "The point being made is that approaches have to be changed in order to resolve such issues [as of Caste and Racism]. "
Moornam (or you) would do well to spell out as to the different approach that could have been adopted by India to more effectively get rid of Untouchability and Sati. If you come out with this, we can debate further. (Or we may even agree that this is a better approach -- if all of us are convinced regarding this!)
The argument that Untouchability (unlike Racial Segregation in SA and US) is not a "system" -- and so needs a different unspecified approach -- is terribly weak and unconvincing.
Apart from possible "approaches", it is important that we are able to openly talk about and criticise evil aspects of our own culture. It is important to recognize that all cultures (including ours) have both good and bad aspects.
It would be a gross folly to regard our own culture as "superior" to other cultures. (I hope neither Moornam nor you) subscribe to such culture supramacist view...)
Anand Nair
written by dwai, 2007-04-01 10:19:52
No one is "trivializing" or "winking over" the fact that Caste-based discrimination is bad. The point being made is that approaches have to be changed in order to resolve such issues.
The approach taken is that Caste-discrimination is NOT a system, it is a cultural practice (and a bad one at that). Therefore, the approach needed to resolve this should be different from how one would proceed to fix a "Systematic" problem. Apartheid and Racial Segregation were Systematic practices and a systematic approach to fixing these worked (Civil disobedience of the Civil Rights movement in the US, for eg). The same is not true in India and it's case of Caste Culture.
The mitigation of these practices is imperative - do read my article titled "The Reservation Complex" to learn more about some options available.
written by Anand Nair, 2007-04-01 05:57:02
Moorman,
You said, "You used the phrase "caste system" when the whole article is about it not being systematic. "
I already responded that this is an irrelevant distinction (even if valid) as caste segregation as was practiced in our "culture", is just as unacceptable as racism that was practiced (systematically or otherwise) by other cultures.
I am pointing out that it is UNJUSTIFIABLE to "have a problem .. that this [caste] is compared with Apartheid, where there were laws proclaiming it!"
Even the subtlest attempt to minimise the evil cutural practice of caste needs to be contested. This is what I am doing. Let us club caste with apartheid -- what is your objection?
You went on, "So the US government should pass a law saying that if a man rejects a woman for being fat, he could go to jail!"
This is an invalid comparison. Such a law would be illiberal.
While talking against racism, we are NOT asking for laws that force Whites to date Blacks. While talking against caste, we are NOT asking for laws that force Brahmins to date Dalits.
On the other hand, had there been a cultural practice that involved practices such as segregation, untouchability etc against fat (or thin) women (or men), such a practice ought to be opposed as vigorously as we oppose racism and caste.
We oppose racism, sati, caste, slavery, female infanticide etc as evil cultural practices. I regard these to be of a different class compared to choices regarding whom to date, or get married to...
dwai: This is discussion has NOTHING to do with whether there were "bonafide" laws in the US (or in ancient India) that facilitated segrgation (or untouchability or sati). In case of deep-rooted cultural practices, specific laws that "permit" this may well be redundant. But even such a circumstance does not mitigate the evil nature of some cultural practices...
Anand Nair
written by dwai, 2007-03-31 18:43:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation
written by dwai, 2007-03-31 18:11:27
Incidentally racism too is an evil cultural practice. Adherence to the practices of racism (by common people) in the US was "the norm" till recent times. As in case of caste, it was ABSENCE of effective laws (which banned racial prejudice, slavery, discrimination etc.) that allowed these cultural practices to persist in the US over centuries.
I think your incidental knowledge on this matter is rather sketchy (if existent at all). In the US, there was a bonafide LAW that "sanctioned" the practice of Racism -- it was called Seggregation where there were separate infrastructure created for the Black people so that the Whites would not have to share their's with them (the Blacks).
The Black kids weren't allowed to attend schools with White kids, black people were not allowed to ride on the same buses (or at least in the same section as the white people). That is the example of "State Sanctioned" -- where this phenomenon had the backing of the State (literally Southern State Governments). Not the same case where in India (ancient or otherwise) -- as you try to make your argument to be!
written by Anand Nair, 2007-03-31 13:14:54
dwai,
For unknown reasons, you insist that the term "State Sanctioned would [ONLY] mean - the State conspired/planned/strategized to do this in order to meet whatever ends they were aiming at."
As I said earlier, my own definition is different!
According to me, if a State ignores murder by not punishing the murderer (and if murder is indeed widespread) this is EQUIVALENT to the State legally sanctioning murder. Indeed, this is also equivalent to the state having "conspired/planned/strategized" to let murder go unpunished.
Any State that does not have the law that makes murder a cognizable offence is guilty of SANCTIONING people to commit murder. Just so, any State that does not have the law that makes untouchability a cognizable offence is guilty of SANCTIONING people to practice untouchability!
You claim, "...for it is culture that made the adherence to these practices (by common people) the norm."
Indeed, there are EVIL aspects to EVERY culture. The practice caste (however much the norm) is the EVIL aspect of OUR culture. A state that does not have laws to ruthlessly CRUSH the evil aspects of culture is guilty of abetting in the continuation of evil cultural practices. (Sati too comes to the mind)
Incidentally racism too is an evil cultural practice. Adherence to the practices of racism (by common people) in the US was "the norm" till recent times. As in case of caste, it was ABSENCE of effective laws (which banned racial prejudice, slavery, discrimination etc.) that allowed these cultural practices to persist in the US over centuries.
It is pernicious to PRETEND that racism is a bad thing, while the caste system was a benign cultural practice. Both need to be CLUBBED together as evil cultural practices (that the concerned cultures ought to be ashamed of...)
Anand Nair
written by dwai, 2007-03-31 09:52:09
No! Inaction is not the same as action. While it is true that these phenomena (caste-based discrimination, etc) were prevalent in the Medieval periods, it cannot be considered "State Sanctioned". Since, State Sanctioned would mean - the State conspired/planned/strategized to do this in order to meet whatever ends they were aiming at.
It indeed was cultural, and not systematic -- for it is culture that made the adherence to these practices (by common people) the norm.
Just because you deem it fit, doesn't change the way words are truly meant to be. You can feel free to call this whatever you want, but it wasn't "State Sanctioned".
written by Anand Nair, 2007-03-29 05:13:50
dwai,
You claimed, "I have contested this locus standii of Socialists and Communists that there needs to be this mythical "equituous society"."
But that is quite okay. I have NOT been arguing for equity in my reponse to Moornam!
It is precisely when we recognize the reality of inequity that we would need ALSO to understand that there is bound to be a "creamy layer" among all communities -- who get to usurp most of the resources of society.
Accepting the universal nature of inequity -- why is Moornam selectively upset with the existence of inequity (creamy layer) among dalits (and other quota eligibles)?
Accepting the universal nature of inequity -- any community that is not **adequately represented** within this creamy layer (of the society in general) is defined as socially backward. The increasing size of the creamy layer among dalits is an indication of social progress of that community as a whole.
You had also remarked, "It is news that there is a "State sponsored/sanctioned system that "allowed untouchability etc" existed until recent times."
Indeed, there **was** such a situation in India -- including, to a great extent, in the regions of India ruled by Moghuls.
You asked, "Does the absence of something allude to the "presence of it's converse automatically? "
Why did you add the clause "automatically" in the question? We are considering the **fact** that untouchability against dalits was WIDELY prevalent in India (including during Moghul rule) and the concerned States had **allowed** such a pernicious practice without inviting punishment.
According to me, if a State ignores murder by not punishing the murderer (and if murder is indeed widespread) this is EQUIVALENT to the State sanctioning murder. You may disagree. But that is my view...
Anand Nair
written by dwai, 2007-03-27 19:42:20
I couldn't but do this -- :- reading AN's comment. It is news that there is a "State sponsored/sanctioned system that "allowed untouchability etc" existed until recent times. Does the absence of something allude to the "presence of it's converse automatically?
See where I'm going with this? Anand Nair, when will you stop hiding behind cleverly crafted pseudo-statements and step out to see the light?
written by dwai, 2007-03-27 19:38:31
You'll do well to read Dr. De Nicolas' articles -- the "Religion -- the Last weapon of Discrimination" series here on TMJ.
in any non-inequitous social order, there is bound to be a "creamy layer" among all communities -- who get usurp most of the resources of society. Any community that is not represented within this creamy layer is defined as socially backward. The increasing size of the creamy layer among dalits is an indication of social progress of that community as a whole.
I have contested this locus standii of Socialists and Communists that there needs to be this mythical "equituous society". Nature is not built that way --- there NEEDS to be an imbalance/an inequity for change to happen.
While this by no means should be misunderstood to construe that I support Caste culture, I think any artificial correctives that are introduced, will only generate more anomaly than corrections.
Read my article titled the "Reservation Complex" here to see my point of view on this matter.
written by Anand Nair, 2007-03-27 13:50:48
Moornam,
The very phenomenon of upwardly "creamy layer" among dalits is a direct consequence of Affirmative Action (as you yourself aver). This in fact, represents the SUCCESS of the policy!
In any non-inequitous social order, there is bound to be a "creamy layer" among all communities -- who get usurp most of the resources of society. Any community that is not represented within this creamy layer is defined as socially backward. The increasing size of the creamy layer among dalits is an indication of social progress of that community as a whole.
Is it any wonder that the argument of "creamy layer" (that you give) does NOT impress the poor dalits or the poor non-quota communities? That the rise of the dalit creamy layer only bothers those who themselves represent the creamy layer among the non-quota communities?
You also said about Apartheid, "...was a State sanctioned system. Caste is not. That's the whole point of this article".
This is what I contest.
Apartheid represented sanction by the State of racist cultural values. The latter are as reprehensible as the former.
Likewise, state sanctioned systems that existed in large parts of India (till recent times) that allowed untouchability, segregation, denial of temple entry, access to common wells etc to dalits represented the realisation of caste cultural values.
It is terrible to posit that caste culture is not as much of a social evil as is race culture...
Anand Nair
written by Anand Nair, 2007-03-23 02:17:22
Rudra, Moornam,
There can be no objection to refering to "Caste Culture", rather than to "Caste System" -- provided it is acknowledged that Caste Culture is similar to the "Race Culture" that emerged in other parts of the world as a result of misplaced notions of superiority of some people. If it is acknowledged that both Caste and Race are variants of economic oppression of one set of people by the other -- all is well.
The solutions to both -- "Caste Culture" and "Race Culture" -- too are similar. A combination of legal measures, affirmative action, reduction of economic inequity (such as access to resources such as water, land etc) AND discrediting of the cultural values that spawned these as practical social realities.
About caste in India Moornam states, "There is no uniformity". What is the pertinence? Is there uniformity in the way racism manifests itself around the world? In the South of the US and the North? Within SA in the days of Apartheid?
Why is a very valid comparison of the Caste System to Apartheid perceived as an "attack" on India? In what way does the stand that taken by India at the World Conference Against Racism in Durban amount to "defending" India?
Moornam declares, "The Government of India is trying its best to solve this problem for the last sixty years, but without any success. Indeed, it is becoming apparent that the problem in rural areas is growing worse."
This is a total falsehood -- and an opinion that can possibly be held only by those who mourn the loss of their caste privileges in the last 60 years! While the vestiges and ill-effects of the erstwhile Caste Culture persists to this day, the situation is vastly better than it was say a half century back. Ask any Dalit what he thinks about this!
Apartheid -- as a legal fact -- may indeed be called a "system". But the point is that this "system" represented the realization of the concept of racial superiority of the Whites, and the inferiority of the blacks. Systems can indeed be done away with -- we they have done so in South Africa, and we have done this in India (say, by banning untouchability). The prejudice -- which is a part of the culture -- would persist even after the legal structures are dismantled. This is the situation in India.
Moornam claimed, "The number of Hindus who carry ManuSmriti in their homes is about the same as customers in Ford dealerships in Japan"
It is more pertinent to state that there would be about the same number of people in India with Manu Smriti in their homes as there were people in South Africa with law books that sanctioned Apartheid.
The absence of either of these documents at homes does NOT indicate that the "codes" (laid down in these documents) were not followed -- either by the Whites of SA or by the Caste Hindus. Or that Manu Smriti was NOT the theocratic basis for various cultural percepts and practices pertaining to caste.
Anand Nair
written by Antonio, 2007-03-22 15:43:28
Welcome and thanks.
OM.
Nitin Bhai
written by Sreeparna, 2007-03-20 00:08:22
written by Sreeparna, 2007-03-20 00:02:36
written by Adi, 2007-03-19 23:07:46
written by Miriam, 2007-03-19 21:02:11
I am at miriam2002@excite.com if you want to write to me!
written by Miriam, 2007-03-19 20:58:43
written by Miriam, 2007-03-19 20:56:27
Have not the xians and muslims of India duped Harijans into the trap of casteless system and then forced them into DALIT muslim or xian plight - still oppressed and persecuted - perhaps ever more? Now they want job quotas for these dalits who were kept poor secretly in the basement - hidden from the public view - being brought to daylight just to grab more from the small Saffron pie that HIndus got left after so much colonial plundering!! What a cruel irony that leaves poor Hindus much poorer with no prospect of job reservations or quotas in their own land where thay have nbeen paying our jizya for many centuries!!!!
written by Dr. Pradip Gangopadh, 2007-03-19 12:59:33
Gangp
written by karigar, 2007-03-19 10:24:10
Good "system" analysis...
The Euro derivation of "Caste" from two distinct Indian concepts of jati & varna could be a good supplement to this analysis...
written by dwai, 2007-03-18 21:21:48
Indeed...it is a Cultural element, rather than a system.
Welcome back Moor Nam!
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There is another myth that is being propagated on this “pseudo-caste system†that it was in existence for 2000 years. This is a hateful propaganda. The fact is the Hindus were suffering from the invasion and colonization of Muslims and Christians for the last 1000 years. India is in such a bad state due to these factors. However these Muslims and Christians cleverly manufacture the theory of "caste system" to fool the Indian that all problems is due to “caste system†and it is terribly worrying that there are still people echoing these false propaganda.
An interesting things to note here is, those who talk ill about caste system will be silent or avoid any discussion relating to the issue of discrimination done by Christians and Muslims on Hindus. This shows that these people are actually working for their Christian and Muslim masters to split the Indian society and are not really interested in creating harmony and peace.